Revival: When it Happens, You’ll Know It.

This transcript is taken from a Stand in the Gap Today radio program, originally aired on 3/22/22. To listen to the program, please click HERE.

Dave Kistler:                      Well, ladies and gentlemen, in the pages, the sacred pages of New Testament scripture, we have recorded what some have called the single greatest revival in the history of the Christian Church. In fact, Acts chapter number two records the scene, and I’m going to read from that passage. The Bible says, “And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing, mighty wind, and it filled the house where they were sitting.” Well, friends, the scripture goes on to say this, “And they were all amazed and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. But Peter, standing up with the 11 lifted up his voice and said unto them, Ye men of Judah and all ye that dwell in Jerusalem, be this known unto you and hearken to my words for these are not drunken as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.”

                                             And I’ll end my reading right there. Well, friends, this unparalleled account of God’s supernatural working has been seen, though definitely not to the same degree of course, throughout the history of the Christian Church. And as said the greatest preacher of the first Great Awakening, Jonathan Edwards, he said, quote, “Revival is a glorious and wonderful working of God, when the spirit of God is poured out in a far greater and more glorious measure.” Well, folks, there’s been times too many numerous to mention where people have attempted to define revival. The word “revive” means to come to life again from a state of apparent deadness. And perhaps the best definition I’ve personally heard is this. Revival is the fresh infusion of life into a body that is threatening to become a corpse.

                                             Here’s what the scripture has to say about revival in Psalm 85 verses four through six, it says, “Turn us, oh God, of our salvation, and cause thine anger toward us to cease. Wilt thou be angry with us forever? Wilt thou draw out thine anger to all generations? Wilt thou not revive us again, that thy people may rejoice in thee?” While attempting to define revival is fine, I think the best thing with respect to revival is to actually see or experience one. And with that in mind, I want to welcome you to Stand in the Gap today. I’m Dave Kistler, joined today by co-host Dr. Gary Dull. We’re going to be talking about the topic of revival.

                                             So I’ve chosen to title our program today this. Revival, when it happens, you will know it. And here to help us with our discussion is Pastor Steve Pope. He’s the pastor of Calvary Baptist Church in Union Grove, North Carolina. He’s a man that I’ve known since he was a teenager and I was in my early 20s. And we’re having him on the program today because the church he pastors, Calvary Baptist Church has been in the middle of a genuine revival for the last almost now 10 days. I’ll just say this, and then we’re going to talk to Steve about it. Services have been packed. People have been saved in large numbers. The spirit of God has been evidently present. And the only way to describe all of this is revival, a coming to life of God’s church. Well, Steve, I want to welcome you to Stand in the Gap today, my friend. Thank you for being aboard.

Steve Pope:                       Thank you, Brother Dave. It’s an honor and a privilege to be with you today.

Dave Kistler:                      Well, it’s a delight to have you on the program. And Steve, I want to go here. Revival has been associated in your situation with no special revival emphasis. In other words, what I mean is there’s been no planned meeting. You did not invite in a special speaker, though obviously there’s nothing wrong with that. You’ve had really no outside promotion, though of course there’s nothing wrong with promoting a revival or announcing a planned week of revival meetings either. But just simply Sunday a week ago, God showed up in power, in what some would say is in the normal of your typical weekly church life. Share a little bit, if you would, Brother Steve, about what happened Sunday a week ago, and just a little bit about what’s been going on since.

Steve Pope:                       Well, thank you, Brother Dave. Yes, it was just another plain day. Now we always hope for a big day. Every Sunday’s a big day at Calvary because we get to lift up our savior. But just as far as we thought, just another day of ministry and we were excited. I mean, we were excited about Sunday and hoping for a great crowd. And it seems like we’re starting to really gain a lot of our momentum back from COVID. And a lot of folks are coming back. A lot of visitors are starting to come. But just, now I had a message that was a very serious message. I preached a message called A Reality of Eternity, where I was talking about those who have heard the truth and heard the truth and heard the truth, and yet they’ve rejected the truth are going to suffer some of the worst torment in eternity.

                                             But honestly, Brother Dave, this is the truth. I was more excited about the message I was going to bring on Sunday night than the message I was going to bring on Sunday morning. And we just preached and we gave the invitation. And honestly, from that point on, it was like God took over. And we had a number of people saved in the Sunday morning service, but that spirit never stopped. My wife and I, we didn’t leave. We didn’t leave the property until almost three o’clock in the afternoon, just constantly there dealing with people, leading folks to Christ. And we left and went home, got a bite to eat. We came back about five o’clock. When we got back at five o’clock, there were people waiting on us. And we had several more people saved before the service began.

                                             And then Sunday night, we started the service, and you could feel that God was doing something unique in the service. And then Sunday night, I don’t know how to explain to you, Brother Dave, but other than it was like the spirit of God just sat down in the service. People began to respond. We didn’t coerce it. We weren’t urging people to come. It was nothing like that. It was people began to come. People began to get on the altars and weep. And I just called and asked our personal workers to come to the front. And we started dealing with people. People were getting saved. Well, that went over past the service that night. Folks were getting saved end of the night. We didn’t get home till probably midnight. Early that morning, Monday morning, my phone was ringing and folks were saying, “Preacher, could you call me?”

                                             And by the way, these were not folks that were necessarily associated with Calvary. Folks were watching the livestream. And so we started leading folk, folks came to our home, we started leading folks to Christ here. And then folks reached out and said, “Pastors, is there any way you can meet me at the church?” And so we, my wife and I went to the church that morning. Folks were getting saved at the church. And so this, it wasn’t until two o’clock in the afternoon, Brother Dave, I sent out a call to the church and I said, “Church, I know this wasn’t scheduled,” but I said, “We’re going to have church tonight. We’re going to meet tonight at seven o’clock on Monday. And anyway from there on-

Dave Kistler:                      Steve, hold your thought right there, my friend, if you would. I hate to do this. Ladies and gentlemen, we’re going to come back after this brief time out. We’re going to share a lot more with you about the topic of revival, but specifically what has been going on at Calvary Baptist Church in Union Grove, North Carolina. Our topic is this. Revival, when it happens, you’ll know it. And you’re going to find out about how you can know that, coming up after this brief timeout.


Dave Kistler:                      Well, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Stand in the Gap today. I’m Dave Kistler, joined today by co-host Gary Dull and by our special guest, Pastor Steve Pope. He is the pastor of Calvary Baptist Church in Union Grove, North Carolina, where a genuine revival has been occurring over the last, just under 10 days now. And we’re going to be talking with him more about that in this segment. Friends, I confess to you, I’ve been intrigued by and have been the student of and actually have been privileged to actually see a number of genuine revivals during my 38 years of evangelistic ministry.

                                             I’ve also read numerous books. In fact, I think I’ve read almost every book on the topic that’s ever been written. And I’ve visited the locations of some of the great revivals that have occurred in the United States as well as across the globe. I think I’ve been though most intrigued by the revival that occurred between the years of 1904 and 1906 in the country of Wales. Obviously books have been written about that phenomenal move of God that lasted for almost 18 months. Well, in 1990, I made the first of almost 20 trips to the country of England. And on that first visit, I met a gentleman by the name of Daniel, who was a little boy when the Welsh Revival of 1904 began. And while I was preaching there in England, this 93-year-old man loaned me a book, which I realized very quickly, there was no copyright on the book. I’ve never seen the book since.

                                             But it was an absolute day-by-day accounting of the revival in Wales as it was progressing. And because the book was not copyrighted and was certainly out of print, I photocopied as much of that book as I possibly could while I was there in England for my own personal study and prayer. And that incredible work described the move of God in Wales this way, and I want you to listen to this quote. The author of the book said, quote, “If you could have hovered over the principality of Wales during those amazing days of revival, you would’ve seen spontaneous prairie fires of revival springing up seemingly unrelated to each other all across the country.” Well, so intrigued was I when I read that book that I actually visited the town of Loughor, Wales, which is where the Welsh Revival actually began.

                                             And though there’s much more I could say about that revival and about my visit to the place where it began, for now, I want to say just simply this. What began as a small meeting morphed into a move of God that touched not only Wales but literally the world at that time. Well, here again to assist us with this discussion of revival is Pastor Steve Pope, pastor of Calvary Baptist Church in Union Grove, whose church, again, has been experiencing a very unusual move of God over the last almost 10 days. Steve, I want to ask you this. I know we don’t want to get down into the weeds and try to examine, dissect the move of God here, even as it’s ongoing. But I’m just wondering what preceded, if anything, what you’re witnessing right now at Calvary? It’s been said that every revival can be traced to at least one praying figure. Is there anything that you can look back on, point to that maybe in some way precipitated what you’re witnessing currently?

Steve Pope:                       Well, I definitely think, Brother Dave, we’ve been trying as a church to do a little better job concerning our prayer life. And before our services, before all of our services, our men and women are meeting in different rooms, and we’re praying for the services. And I’ve started inviting all of our men into my actual study, and what a blessing it is to, before the service, just to see that study just packed with men, just calling out on God and asking God to work. And I think that’s one of the things that’s helped.

                                             One of the things, and I’ll say this quickly, one of the things that really, I think, that precipitated this was Sunday morning when all this started, we had a young man in our church who was a preacher’s kid for many, many years. And he walked the aisle. I didn’t even know what was going on. I had no idea what was going on. And this young man just fell into the altar getting broken and was born again. And it was like at that very moment, it was like God began to do something very, very special in our church. And here’s the thing. Nobody really knew what was going on over there, including myself. But it was like God knew. And from that, it was like the revival fires began to burn.

Gary Dull:                           It’s amazing, Steve, to see how the Lord begins revivals. Of course you were talking about prayer, and I’ve often said that the prayer of God’s people always precedes a good, solid, biblically based revival. And thank the Lord for that. And then sometimes it just takes one particular situation to get that thing to grow and develop. And maybe that’s what happened that morning when that fellow came to Christ. But revivals have often been accompanied by great emotional upheaval. I guess that’s for lack of a better term to describe it because we’ve seen that many times in revivals. And that is the case because revival involves the confession of sin and a dramatic return to God. So how else could you have anything but a good, genuine, emotional upheaval? And I’m just wondering if you’ve been able to see any of that take place in your church there and in the revival that you’re experiencing there at North Carolina?

Steve Pope:                       Absolutely. The goal we have, and we’ve shared this numerous times with our church over the last nine days, of course the greatest thing that’s happened in this move has been the souls that have been saved. As of last night, 84 people have come to Christ just in the last few days. But one of the other great things, I mean, one of the great things that’s happened is we have saw so many people come back to Christ. And I’m talking about Christians, I’m talking about folks that were already saved. God had already confirmed that in their spirit that they were born again.

                                             But we have seen so many people get right with God. It is amazing. We’ve saw people in the church get right with one another. We’ve saw families, literally, we’re seeing families changed. Honestly Sunday before last, we looked across the altar in our church, and there were little pieces of Kleenex just littered across the front of the altar. I’ve never seen that in 30 years, where people were just weeping and just getting things right with the Lord. And it, as a pastor that’s been in the church for 30 years, man, it is something exciting to see.

Dave Kistler:                      Brother Steve, years ago I heard a great evangelist, if I called his name, you would know who I’m talking about, but he was in a meeting in another town outside North Carolina. And one of my pastor friends attended the meeting. And it was one of those times that literally the Lord just breathed on the place, and a genuine revival took place. And preceding all of the move of God, there was some tremendous excitement and enthusiasm. And the pastor that shared this with me said that he said to this evangelist, he said, “This is revival, this joy, this enthusiasm.” And the evangelist looked at him, and he said, “No.” He said, “I would disagree with you. It’s not revival yet.” He said, “You know revival has come when the altar and when the meeting place sounds like a labor room, like women getting ready to give birth to babies.” He said, “It’s called sorrow over sin.”

                                             And that’s what you’re describing with these pieces of Kleenex that line the altar. It’s people weeping over their own sin, weeping ultimately tears of joy because they’re now right with God, right with others in their family, right with others in the body of Christ. And it’s an amazing thing to witness. Steve, I want to go here, and we got just a couple of minutes to do it. But in Acts chapter two, there were those who attempted to attribute God’s work at Pentecost to public drunkenness. In other words, the enemy, the devil wanted to discredit what God was doing. The Welsh Revival was certainly no different. There were many detractors and distractors from that event or those that wanted to discredit what God was doing. Now, I know you don’t want to major on this and neither do I, but I know anytime God moves, there are always people that have something negative to say. Have you experienced any of that? And if so, how have you chosen to handle it?

Steve Pope:                       We have had that, Brother Dave. We’ve already had folks that are beginning to criticize. And that’s all right. And we knew that that was going to happen. I think the way that I would address that, and the way I have addressed it to the church is that, and to our critics is that this wasn’t something that was planned. We never had this on the church calendar. This was something that just, this was something that God did. God orchestrated this, God put this together. And so to our detractors, I’ve just said, “Come and see. I mean, come and see.” It’s one thing to hear about what’s happening. It’s another thing just to come and see the lives that are literally being changed and people’s countenance completely transformed. It’s not about a man or a congregation or even a certain church. It’s just something that God saw fit to do.


Dave Kistler:                      Well, ladies and gentlemen, we’re talking with Pastor Steve Pope. He’s the pastor of Calvary Baptist Church in Union Grove, North Carolina. Over the last just under 10 days, God has breathed on that part, not only of Union Grove, but he’s breathed on that part of Western North Carolina. And people are coming from all over that area of the western part of the state in which I live, and they’re coming to see, just to see what God is doing there at Calvary Baptist. It’s something unique and it’s something special. And folks, I want to say this. I think Brother Steve said it as well as it could be said, and he said it with the kind of spirit with which it needs to be said. He said, “I just say to the detractors, Come and see, just come and see for yourself, and then decide whether or not this is a genuine work of God.”

                                             In 1904, when the Welsh revival broke out, there were plenty of detractors there. And one well known British pastor said, “I’m going to go and see it for myself.” And he did exactly that. And he said from the time he arrived in the auditorium where the meeting was being held, he said, “I could sense the presence and power of God.” And he said to those that were the detractors, he said, “Come and see for yourself what I saw was God’s genuine work of revival being accomplished there in the principality of Wales.” Well, friends, when we come back, we’re going to continue our discussion with Pastor Steve. Our topic is this. Revival, when it happens, you’ll know it. Well, we’ve got a lot more to talk about. Don’t you miss a bit of it, coming up right after this very brief time out.

                                             In the summer of 1806 in a grove of trees in Williamstown, Massachusetts five college students met to discuss the theology of missionary service. Well, their meeting was suddenly interrupted by a thunderstorm, and the students, Samuel Mills, James Richards, Francis Robbins, Harvey Loomis, and Byram Green took shelter under a haystack until the sky cleared. Well, the brevity of the shower and the strangeness of the place of refuge and the peculiarity of their topic of prayer and conference all took hold of their imaginations and their memories. And that small prayer meeting ultimately became the catalyst for the modern day missionary movement.

                                             In 1808, the Haystack Prayer group and other Williams students began a group called, quote, “The Brethren.” Now that’s not The Brethren denomination. It was just called The Brethren. And this group was organized to effect in the persons of its members a mission to those who were not Christians. And in 1812, the ABCFM sent its first missionaries to the Indian subcontinent. Samuel Mills became the person with the greatest influence on the modern missions movement, and he played a role in founding the American Bible Society. Well, in 1867, a monument was erected in Williamstown, Massachusetts to honor the five men who gathered under that haystack and had that prayer meeting.

                                             And then in 1906, a gathering took place in Williams College in Massachusetts to remember the prayer meeting of over 100 years before. And then in the summer of 2006, 200 years after the prayer meeting, those committed missions did celebrate the 200th anniversary of the Haystack Prayer Revival. And I share that with you, ladies and gentlemen, because I want you to understand something. So many times, revival can begin in a small, seemingly insignificant way. And the scripture actually addresses that in Zechariah four verse 10, where the Bible says that we should not, quote, “Despise the day of small things.” That which can begin small, can erupt into something beyond significant that can literally impact the nation and literally impact the globe.

                                             And so we’re talking today again with Pastor Steve Pope, Calvary Baptist Church, Union Grove, North Carolina about what’s been going on for the last nine days plus there at his church. Over 80 people in just the last nine days have come to know Jesus Christ as savior. Families have been restored, relationships restored. People that have been following God at a distance, to call it that would be probably a generous way to say it, but knew the Lord as savior have been drawn back to the Lord. Their commitment to him has reached a fevered pitch. And the only way to describe all of this is to call it what the Bible calls it, and that’s a revival.

                                             Steve, I want to go here. I heard it said by a seasoned and really well respected preacher years ago, and here’s what he said. He said, “God does not revive in the midst of apostasy.” Well, I think we’d all agree that we’re in a time of great apostasy right now. But the very word “revive,” vive, life, re, again, to come to life again, I think the word itself presupposes very serious decline. So I’m curious, Brother Steve, after what you’ve experienced over the last nine days, what would you say to those who would want to suggest that America is too far gone to experience any form of revival?

Steve Pope:                       Well, we’ve never believed that, Brother Dave. Yes, America is declining. That’s true. But we all know you cannot put God in a box, and we’ve always believed that at Calvary. I think I would just, again, I would say to them, it is just amazing to see what God is doing, and that what we’ve saw God do in just the last few days. There’s no explanation for it. It has spilled out, way outside of our church. It’s not just happening at Calvary. Our Calvary family is bringing people.

                                             Our livestream, Brother Dave, is it’s unbelievable what’s happening on our livestream. There’s no explanation for it. We had people watch before, but now it’s, we have people watch. We had a man last night, Brother Dave, 73 years old that found the livestream, has watched the livestream the last few days. Called his niece and said, “I need you to come pick me up.” He lives over 30 minutes away from the church, says, “I need you to take me to church tonight.” And she said, “Okay” and took her feeble 73-year-old uncle to our church last night. He walked the aisle and was born again last night, and said he would never step foot in a church. That’s the kind of things we’re seeing happen. And there is no explanation for that outside of what God can do.

Gary Dull:                           And I think that’s a point to take into consideration, Brother Steve. And that is that when God works, yes, we are able to see him do that which is exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, but there’s no human explanation. To see God work is amazing. He works in his own way, his own time, through his own people, in the people that he wants to work in. And you look at it and you say, “Well, we couldn’t have planned that. We could never plan it again. But it’s just what God is doing.” So it’s amazing to hear this testimony of what’s taking place there in your church.

                                             They say that during the Hebrides Revival back in 1949 on the island of Lewis that’s off the coast of Scotland, they say that the meetings over there in those days lasted for hours. And of course as well, even as you have indicated there in your revival, people came seeking God all hours of the day and night because God continued to work. Now, when you go through something like that, it is spiritually invigorating, but it is also physically tiring. And I can almost sense a bit of tiredness in your voice, even as we’re talking today. But how have you approached that in the last two days, keeping up with everything that God is doing and being physically fit and strong enough to be able to carry out the ministry God’s given you?

Steve Pope:                       Amen. I appreciate that, Brother Gary. Yes. It is true. And yes, I am tired and our people are extremely tired. I told some of our folks last night, I said, “I know you’re tired.” And I said, “But God knows that. God knows that as well.” But I’m going to tell you something that’s so exciting. And Brother Dave, you referenced this a while ago, talking about a delivery room. We’ve been seeing people saved during the service, but we have very much been seeing people saved after the service. And what’s really amazing is to see people who are already tired, they will not leave the church property until they see what happens. And it’s almost like a spiritual delivery room. They are waiting, although they’re wore out, and they’ve got to get up and go to work tomorrow. We have people that are staying around the church until 11 o’clock at night because they just can’t wait to see what decision is being made next. And so I think, Brother Gary, the answer to that is yes, there is, it’s physically taxing. But boy, spiritually speaking, God just gives you a supernatural energy to keep going.

Dave Kistler:                      Gentlemen, I was just thinking, Steve, as you were talking and as Gary posed that really important question, it’s a question that’s been on my mind and heart. And I’ll be honest with you, Steve, I’ve been praying for you because I know you’ve been at the tip of the spear. And I know God’s given you everything you’ve needed, and he’s given your people everything you’ve needed. But I know you because I’ve known you since you were a teenager. I know you give everything you’ve got to the calling to which God has led you. So I know you’ve got to be exhausted. So I’ve been praying, “Oh, God, strengthen him. Give him that which he needs. Keep him, Lord, strong and at the forefront of all of this.”

                                             But there’s a passage in the book of Acts chapter number three. Of course, a lot happens in the early part of that chapter. But a lame man is healed, and it’s such a dramatic story that everybody in proximity hears about it. They all rush into the temple. And Peter stands up and he says this, “Repent.” He preaches this message, “And be converted that your sins may be blotted out.” Listen to this next phrase. “When the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.” And Steve, I can also hear this in your voice. You have gone through, and your church has gone through and is still going through a time of spiritual refreshing, the likes of which you have really never experienced. Steve, you can’t put a price tag on that. How many people live the majority of their life and never see anything remotely close to what you are privileged to witness that is coming directly from God’s hand? I’d love for you, in just the couple of minutes we have left, to comment on that.

Steve Pope:                       Yes, sir, Brother Dave. It really has. It’s been spiritually invigorating. And our folks are tired, but I’m telling you, God is doing so many miraculous things. And I’ll just give you a for instance. I referenced the livestream a while ago. We’ve had this happen over the last nine days, we’ve had this happen numerous times where our service had already started. People were too tuning in to the livestream, and the spirit of God was working so strongly that they got in their car and drove physically to our property, walked the aisle at the property and got saved. We had a man the other day that drove from your area the other day and was watching from Morganton, North Carolina. The service had already started. Got in his car and probably drove a little too fast, but came to Union Grove, walked the aisle there at Calvary Baptist Church and was led to Christ. And it is just, it is so exciting. And when you see God doing those kind of things, man, it makes you want to go another day. That’s for sure.

Dave Kistler:                      Well, Steve, let me do this. Gary, I want to go to you. I’m going to ask you this question. I know in my 38 years of evangelistic ministry, there have been wonderful meetings. There’s been multitudes and multitudes, thousands of people that have come to know Christ as savior. But at the same time, there’s been high points. And I hear the music, and I’m not going to be able to ask the question, so I’ll just make the comment. Ladies and gentlemen, there’s been highlight moments where God just literally descended and met with you in a powerful way, in what can only be described as a genuine revival. Well, in the final segment, segment four coming up, we’re going to talk about what we can do. Now we know revival is God’s work. It’s God’s sovereign work. But are things that we can do to facilitate what God wants to do. And we’re going to be talking about that with Pastor Steve Pope coming up right after this movement.

Dave Kistler:                      Well, ladies and gentlemen, again, welcome back to Stand in the Gap today. I’m Dave Kistler, joined today by Dr. Gary Dull and our special guest, Pastor Steve Pope of the Calvary Baptist Church in Union Grove, North Carolina. And segment four is typically our what we call solution segment. And we don’t want today to be an exception to that. So we’re going to talk about a specific thing in this segment. And to do so, I want to introduce it this way. My wife and I are preparing for a really unique trip coming up here in a few months, and it’s a sailing expedition that has been a dream of both hers and mine for a long time. And folks, I’ll tell you right up front, I am not a veteran sailor at all, but I do know this. If you’re going to catch the wind of a sailing ship, you have to have your sail up.

                                             Now with respect to revival, we know this. No man can produce revival. No one can manufacture revival. But there are some things that we can and should be doing to, and I’m going to use this analogy, set our sails for the wind of God when it blows. In other words, God can move, God’s breath can blow in revival, but if your sail’s down, your ship is not going to move anywhere. But if your sail’s up, when the wind blows, then the sail’s going to catch that wind, and God’s going to be able to move you where he wants you to go. He’s going to be able to do with both individuals, a church, a pastor that which he wants to do, if we have our sail up. And so that’s where I want to go in this segment. Steve, we’re talking about today an incredibly precious thing, the work of God in revival. And Evan Roberts, the great revivalist that God used so powerfully in the Welsh Revival of 1904 said this with respect to the Welsh Revival.

                                             And that’s why I’m trying to be very guarded today. I know you are as well. But Evan Roberts said this. He said the revival in Wales, quote, “lost its luster when human hands played with it.” In other words, like damaging the beautiful petals of a rose when you touch them with your human hands, revival must remain out of our hands and in God’s hands. In other words, we can’t try to usurp and take credit for authority over that which God is doing because revival is his work. Yet having said that, there are some things that I believe we should be doing and not doing, so as to not interfere with what God is doing. And I wonder, Steve, I know you’ve thought about this because you want this to continue as long as God wants it to continue. So are there some things that you’re encouraging your people to do or to not do, so that in no way, the work of God in revival that’s been going on so gloriously for the last nine days is not in any way inhibited?

Steve Pope:                       Well, I think, Brother Dave, the answer to that is we’ve just tried to remind our people that revival is not based on a preacher. It’s not based necessarily on a sermon, a certain sermon or even a church. This thing, I really don’t think that this thing is about Calvary Baptist Church. In fact, we’ve watched as God, as I said a moment ago, God has caused this thing to spill out onto other families outside of our church, and even other churches. We’re already hearing reports of other churches are feeling the ripple effect of what’s going on at Calvary. I would tell you this, brother, that we’ve just tried to stand back and let God do his perfect work. I know two Sunday nights ago, March the 13th, when God began to move, and you know, Brother Dave, you’ve been to our church and we have a structured service, very structured service.

                                             We tell our people that we have an order of service, but it is subject to change if God decides to do something. But two Sunday nights ago in the Sunday night service, when God began to work, and the altar began to become flooded, and I began to deal with people, and I thought, “Lord, what am I going to do?” I mean, I need to lead the service, but there are people in the altar that I need to be talking to. And it was really, Brother Dave, it was like the spirit of God said to me, he didn’t say it audibly of course, but it was like the spirit of God said, “You just move back, and you let me have this service.” And I literally, I did. I just, I stepped back. And from that point on, I said, “I’m not going to worry about the order of service tonight. We’re just going to try to let go and see what God does.” And we began to deal with people in the altar, and God, sure enough, God began to do what God wanted to do.

                                             I think another thing I would say quickly is that the last nine days, as we’ve called the church back to have service, we haven’t even added things to the service that we normally would do to make the service flow, if I could use that word. We’ve just came together, fellowship, we’ve sang some, and then we’ve given the word, and then we’ve given an invitation. And it’s like every single night. We’ve not tried to wow people with a service, but God is continuing to move.

                                             And I don’t know how much time I’ve got, but I’ll just tell you this too, Brother Dave, that right in the midst of all of this, we had already planned to have some major construction there in the front of our church. I told the construction company, I said, “Just come on.” And we had a mess on our hands. We had stuff in the auditorium that we had brought in from the grand atrium. And I guess what I’m trying to say, it was not an opportune time for us to have revival, but it was a time when God saw fit to send revival. And so I would just say we move out of the way and let go, and let God have his way.

Gary Dull:                           Stand back and watch God work, I think is what you’re saying. And Brother Steve, this has been a blessed time to have you on the program today. And we are rapidly running out of time. And I’m going to ask you a question that you may not even be able to answer. And if you can’t, that’s fine because what you’re seeing there is God doing the work. But we have pastors listening to us all across the nation, even this very moment. And there are pastors in churches, praying for revival and asking God to work. And so far, maybe they’ve not seen too much. So what would you say to that pastor right now that’s listening to us, saying, “I really wish that what’s taking place there in Brother Steve’s church in Mount Hope would take place in my church”? Can you give him a word of wisdom? Maybe not. Maybe just let God work, but speak to that pastor, if you would, please.

Steve Pope:                       Well, I think, Brother Gary, I would just say to that pastor, longevity. Just stay. And stay in love with Jesus, and stay in love with your people, and just keep preaching. And God does what God wants to do when God wants to do it. And as you see things happen, as you see a soul get saved, boy, you rejoice over that. As you see a family get right with God, man, you rejoice over those decisions, while you’re waiting on God to do maybe even greater things. And so I would just say to my brothers out there, just stay faithful, just keep preaching the word of God, and trust God that he can do it in his own time. God is a sovereign God.

Dave Kistler:                      Steve, I’m going to go back to that book that I read about the Welsh Revival many, many years ago on my first trip to England. The author of that book said this, “A revival occurred in Wales in 1859. And it was so moving that people began to pray for God to do it again. So from 1859 to 1904,” the author of the book said, “imagine how many sermons were preached, how many prayers were prayed, how many acts of kindness, of service to the Lord were done with seemingly no immediate response or no immediate outcome.”

                                             He said, “You need to think of it this way. Every sermon preached in the power of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God, every act of service done in the power of the Holy Spirit for the glory of God, every prayer prayed for the glory of God goes into a reservoir.” And he said, “The reservoir from 1859 to 1904 filled up. And in 1904, God, in his sovereign plan chose to pull the plug out of the bottom of the reservoir and dump all of that out on the country of Wales in revival blessing.” The scripture says it this way in Isaiah 64:1, “Oh, Lord, wilt thou not rend the heavens? Oh, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy mighty presence.” Folk, let’s pray for revival. Let’s anticipate it. And let’s wait to see God do it.

Title: The COVID Vaccination: Unapproved, Experimental, and Potentially Fatal-Part II


Title: The COVID Vaccination: Unapproved, Experimental, and Potentially Fatal-Part II

Host: Hon. Sam Rohrer

Guest: Dr. Sherri Tenpenny

Date: Jan. 21, 2021



Sam Rohrer:                      Well, hello and welcome to Stand in The Gap Today, where we deal with headline news of importance to Christians and of all freedom loving people, and we do it from a biblical and constitutional perspective. I’m Sam Rohrer and I’ll be joined today by special expert guest, Dr. Sherri Tenpenny. She’s an osteopathic medical doctor, board certified, three medical specialties and widely regarded as perhaps the most knowledgeable physician on the adverse effects that vaccines can have on a person’s health. So this is part two of a focus that we have started actually a couple of weeks ago, but it deals with the decision ladies and gentlemen, that really is being thrust upon us by government, upon which every one of us who are alive in this country. All of you listening to me right now are going to be forced to make a decision.

                                             There’s not too many times I have noted throughout my life, where you’re not going to be able to escape from certain decisions. Most of them you can avoid and go on, nobody cares. But on this one that we’re talking about today, this decision, no fence sitting, no neutral decision. It is the decision of this in the question, do I take the COVID vaccination? Do I choose not to take the COVID vaccination ever? Do I resist it for some time and then come back and take it later? If I’m pulled I can’t travel unless I take it. The choice may become limited, but we’re going to have to make the choice. And can I say here right off that I know when we talk about the matter of vaccinations that it is very controversial, a lot of people have done investigation in the past, maybe for their own children said, “Nah, I don’t like the fact of the way some of these were given.”

                                             Others are really on board and saying, “I liked the idea of vaccinations, but when it comes to this one of COVID vaccination, it is even more perhaps controversial because it’s perhaps more distinctive than any other vaccination you have considered.” And so we’re going to talk about the day, I’m wanting you to keep your mind open. We think it’s part of our responsibility on key points of decision to put out information that people can consider for ourselves. Not my job to tell you what to do. It is my job though, and my responsibility and ours and the program is to offer up information that will help you to consider the ramifications of choices that come our way. Now, that being said today, obviously marks the first day of the Biden Harris administration. A lot of things are happening as you know, executive orders are flying from shutting down the pipeline to open borders, to a host of things.

                                             I’m not going to get into that today. But one of the things that the president has communicated is that he’s going to be prosing about another $2 trillion or so stimulus plan built around COVID. And in it was said this morning that there are going to be some vast sums of money to fund military distribution and involvement with the vaccine. Now we don’t know exactly what that means, but it does make me question when I hear the military involved in vaccinations, because that’s certainly historic. So we’re going to be built off of that thought. Our theme today is this, considering the COVID vaccinations, unapproved, experimental, and potentially fatal. This is part two, that was a theme two weeks ago. And I want to welcome in right now to the program, Dr. Sherri Tenpenny. Sherri, thank you for being with us.

Dr. Sherri Tenp…:            Thank you so much for inviting me back, Sam. It’s my pleasure.

Sam Rohrer:                      We weren’t able in the last program to get things in and we have a lot to cover today, but you’re a vast resource. And so we want to get right into this. Dr. Sherri, on the consent form, a lot of people don’t know that if they choose to take the vaccine, they will have to sign a consent form that has a lot of key information in it. They need to be very careful. I just say that from a legal perspective, but one of the things is that they have to say they’ve considered and understand the benefits versus the risks of taking the vaccine. Now, reading from the Pfizer fact sheet, this is right off of the fact sheet. It says this,

“…this fact sheet contains information to help you understand the risks and the benefits of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccination, which you may receive. The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine is a vaccine.”

And here’s key words, “and may prevent you from getting COVID 19.”

And then it says just below it again, “it is your choice to receive it, or ostensibly not to receive it.”

So I want to ask you a series of short questions here. As we get the program going, first of all, a controversial issue, take the vaccine, not take the vaccine. Does it work, does it not work? But let’s go this way. What is the established need for a vaccine when most of the numbers are saying over 99% of the people who contract the virus survive and go on to live quite normally, what’s the need?

Dr. Sherri Tenp…:            Well, there really isn’t any need Sam, even if you want to think that that 99% is high, even though that is world data that has been accumulated by scientific researchers all over the world and published, if you… what if it was only 90% or 85%, it’s much higher. It’s a much higher rate than what the actual need is. Many researchers have said that the death rate from COVID-19 fell off months ago, like March or April of 2020, that we really don’t have a pandemic anymore. We have a case of stomach flu, and yes, we have a very small subset of people that get sick going to hospital, a smaller subset in the intensive care units and an even smaller subset pass away. So looking at why did those people die is important. The need for this vaccine is minimal. We don’t need another vaccine for the flu and when we’re basing all of these numbers on cases, which is a fraudulent test, which I think we got into in the last program, there really isn’t any need and this vaccine is all risk and no benefit.

Sam Rohrer:                      Okay, great. Let’s go right on. The benefits of taking the vaccine, then if there’s no need, then the question is the benefit and again, I remind our listeners on the manufacturer itself. The only benefit I’m showing bias, but I’m just saying objectively, the only benefit that they say is that it may prevent you from getting COVID 19 and Dr. Sherry, when we understand that the wearing of face masks, maintaining social distancing and all that’s going to continue anyway, even if that vaccine were to work. What is the benefit?

Dr. Sherri Tenp…:            There isn’t any, and it’s all risk. And the fact that you have to… when this vaccine is not going to keep you from getting sick, we have no long-term studies on the potential long-term side effects and complications. I’ve learned from European epidemiologists that I’ve spoken to in meetings that it takes at least 48 days for the first side effects to show up. And then it takes anywhere from four months to four years for the long-term complications to show up from any vaccine. So that’s why vaccine studies under normal conditions, they follow potential side effects and complications for years, we have fast tracked this. We strong armed it into the population, and now we’re forcing people to do it against their will to ostensibly get back into a normal life, which you’ve already said is not going to happen.

Sam Rohrer:                      Stay with us. This is Sam Rohrer, I’m speaking today with Dr. Sherri Tenpenny and our theme is this- part two of our focus on the COVID 19 vaccination.


Sam Rohrer:                      If you’re just joining us right now, we’re looking at COVID-19 vaccinations. I’m doing this again to help present information- expert, reliable information. Our guest today is Dr. Sherry Tenpenny and if you were listening two weeks ago, she was with me for part one of this discussion. I encourage you to go back to our website, You can look up the January 8th interview and then link it together with this one. And you’ll have a very, very, very good sense of this entire issue. And I understand the dilemma that’s facing so many, actually all of us relative to the vaccine. I’ve spent a lot of time in my life looking at issues.

                                             When I was legislatively in the position as a legislator, looking at this issue, we’ve considered these things well for our six children when they were growing up. So my wife and I walked through a lot of this together, but it’s a new consideration for many young parents and for others in this time. So we’re trying to do this to help you have the information so you can be equipped to make a wise informed decision for yourself. Now in the signing of the consent form I mentioned, if you decide to get the vaccination, you’ll have to sign a consent form.

                                             There are questions there. Have you read the materials about this vaccine? Have you considered the risk? That kind of thing is generally standard for anytime you’re going to get a shot in your arm, perhaps or something you can see that, but what’s assumed by people in times like this, where there’s a vaccine heavily promoted, is that the necessary governmental and agency rules and standards put in place in the past to ensure safety and efficacy, that doesn’t work, has in fact been done with no corners being cut. What’s required by law is that research and testing and standards are in place and they’re followed so that the public can be assured of long-term safety.

                                             And that’s done before any official approval is granted in this case, medically it’s by the FDA food and drug administration. But what if those standards have been set aside? What if the safety and efficacy is not yet known as in the case of this Corona virus? You say, why can you say that the safety and efficacy is not established well on the website of Pfizer at They state this, ‘in countries where the vaccine has not been approved’ and that’s actually most, key word approved, by the relevant regulatory authority.

                                             ‘It is an investigational drug and its safety and efficacy have not been established.’ Now that I read to you was not a year ago. That’s just what I pull off the website right now. This is on the official website, the efficacy, the safety and efficacy have not been established and it’s termed an investigational drug. So that’d be the case I want to get right into give you maximum time here, Dr. Sherry, in response to this. When I read research and safety testing, not established means it’s still ongoing. To me it says there’s a risk to the company because they don’t know which is what you’re saying, and everyone in the process who gets involved including the patient also doesn’t know, to me it elevates this concept of risk. What is the risk for the companies involved right now? And just build this whole aspect out.

Dr. Sherri Tenp…:            Yes. Thank you, Sam. And just for the sake of your listeners who may not have heard me talk a lot before. I’m a board certified physician, I live in Cleveland Ohio. I’ve been studying problems associated with vaccines for more than 20 years and invested more than 40,000 hours of my time onto this topic. So this isn’t something that I just decided last week I was going to talk about, this is something I’ve invested years of my life and years of investigational study into. So I think that credibility is important for you to know that the things that Sam and I are talking about aren’t just off the cuff and to address and answer your question about what is the liability for the companies, they have none. In 2005, there was a piece of legislation that was passed into law. It was actually tacked on at 11:30 on a Saturday night on the backside of a defense appropriation bill.

                                             It was later rolled out and referred to as the prep act, which is the public readiness and emergency preparedness act of 2005 that they refer to it as the prep act for sure. In March, 2020, Alex Azar, the head of HHS activated that law by writing it into the federal register and said that from here forward up through October 1st of 2024 or until which time the pandemic is over that any product that has made that can be called a covered countermeasure, which is a drug, a vaccine, a software, a technology, any type of product, a test, all of the PCR testing that’s done. All of it is has 100% liability protection. You cannot be sued for an adverse event. You cannot be sued if it kills you, you cannot be sued if it gives you false information upon which to base your life. So the 2005 prep act completely covers all of this.

                                             The only way that you have any recourse is it after the effect a large number of people have had an adverse effect to this vaccine. If you can get together and convince the U.S Attorney general that this product was created under an act of willful misconduct, meaning they created it intentionally to harm you, that then and only then will action be taken against the companies who’ve made them. That includes every ingredient, the manufacturer of every ingredient, they’ve got every single piece covered. They have zero liability, and therefore they have no incentive at all to make a safe or safer product.

Sam Rohrer:                      Dr. Sherri, that is very, very key information because just from a human nature perspective, the only thing that prevents, since I was in office at one point, politicians or businesses from doing things that can actually harm people as long as they get gain, is the fact that they are afraid that they’re going to be prosecuted legally or in even fewer cases. The people who lead those organizations have a fear of God and they are self-restrained because of moral obligation to people or ethically driven decisions. But if you throw God out, you throw the moral out and the ethical out, then the only thing that most people fear is the fact of what can happen to their job or their company as in being sued. What you said is very critical. This you’re saying what happened in March, where the 2005 act was actually codified, put into regulation forum. And it’s in effect until the end of 2024, where you said or until the end of this pandemic, that’s what you’re saying. This broad immunity from liability is specifically crafted around this COVID virus policy and this vaccine is that correct?

Dr. Sherri Tenp…:            Around the vaccine and any product that they’ve labeled. They’ve given it a name, they call it a covered countermeasure, which again, it can be anything that’s made under the umbrella of I’m doing this in relationship to COVID-19. You can belly up to the money trough that the government is throwing to the pharmaceutical industry. Like you said, at the top of the hour, trillions of more dollars to go into the richest, most wealthy, most powerful and in my opinion, most evil organization on the planet, the pharmaceutical industry.

                                             Any covered countermeasure. So that’s a vaccine, a drug, a test, the PCR testing they’ve approved through emergency use more than 200 different types of test kits that are not standardized. And you cannot compare them from one test to kit, to the other, to software, to technology for any sort of microchipping thing that might happen, anything at all that any manufacturer can apply for money and comply for utilization under an emergency utilization authorization, and get money for it because they say, “Oh, we’re doing this to protect people or to make people safe underneath the COVID-19 regulations.” It’s all of it, gets a blanket pass for any sort of liability.

Sam Rohrer:                      Dr. Sherry. I can say that any time that that happens, any kind of accountabilities, put this way accountability has been removed for whatever reason it will be exploited. And so ladies and gentlemen, again, I want to tie this in with this regard, not only are the companies and all those involved in the distributing of it held harmless. If you agree to take the vaccine and when you sign the consent form, which you’ll have to sign and consent forms are really under law. They’re required to be informed consent, meaning you are signing something that you know, and you have to know about, otherwise it could be a coerced consent or a consent under duress, and that becomes a matter of law.

                                             So this becomes an informed consent. And so you are agreeing, I’ve read all the materials, I’ve considered the risks and the benefits. And then after that, you agree, I accept full responsibility for all, and any adverse reactions that may occur from the vaccine. So in effect, legally you give up your right to sue, even though those involved in giving the vaccine have already been exempted by government. So you understand that this is a very, very big deal. We want you really, really to understand what’s taking place in this regard, with that go to our website, I have produced an analysis of the Pfizer fact sheet. I think you’ll find it very, very helpful.

                                             You can find it at the site at the bottom of the page. You will find it and in it, you will find the entire fact sheet, which is probably closer to the truth of anything. And you’ll find some comments and links for me. And you’ll also find in there one of the consent forms that you can look at and read it for yourself in light of what we’re talking about. And hopefully it will be of help to you. We’re going to cut away now in just a moment for some announcements and come back and just a little bit, continue our discussion. We’re going to talk about now therapeutics and treatment, because a lot of people aren’t even getting this virus.


Sam Rohrer:                      If you’re just joining us now in the middle of this program, this is Stand In The Gap Today. I’m Sam Rohrer and accompanied today by Dr. Sherri Tenpenny. She is an osteopathic medical doctor, board certified, three medical specialties, widely regarded as perhaps the most knowledgeable physician on the adverse effects that vaccines can have. And of course, we’re talking today about, should I take the COVID vaccine? The decision that’s before all of us, were going to have to decide yay or nay or delay, yay, nay, or delay one or the other. And ultimately with pressure from third-party groups, you can’t travel unless you have a COVID passport, they’re calling it. Or you may not have access to digital currency that’s coming unless you have it, the pressure will in fact be on. So you cannot get away from it. But let me go into same theme, slightly different aspect here.

I think we should pay a fair price for the medicines we buy. The only free cheese is in the mousetrap, don’t you think so? On, the prices fully correspond to the quality of the medications. Paying for the brand drug, I hope to get an effective and safe treatment, and that’s what can guarantee.

                                             When it comes to the Corona 19 virus, even from before the official governmental identification of the virus, about a year ago now, as we do this program, individuals and companies were trying without success to produce a vaccine for Corona viruses. This is coronavirus 19, but others have been proceeding. They’ve tried for a long time, either in the past, it didn’t work or all the test animals involved in the research got sick and died, but one way or the other, nothing was ever approved. So even at this time, according to normal safety and testing standards, there is no approved. I’ll put that quote ‘approved Corona virus vaccine’, and the developers Pfizer and the others they make that clear. It’s not approved in the normal sense of the word. It’s emergency authorized, it’s different thing. But the current messenger RNA investigational drug as Pfizer refers to it on their website has never been broadly tested.

                                             And they make that clear. It’s not fully tested. They don’t know. So the result is an experimental or investigational drug where the safety and efficacy, as I mentioned, not tested broadly is now being tested broadly on millions and perhaps billions of people and the companies, as we just talked about, have been granted full immunity from liability and where if there’s any other right you have under law to sue, when you sign the consent form, you give up anything that’s left. So the result of that is you have a drug, an investigational drug being requested by people to be taken into their arms for a virus from which over 99% of the people who get it survive. Now we’ve already talked about some of that. Let me go ahead here, Dr. Sherry, since an investigational drug is out to referred, how can it be a vaccine which asked that question and are these COVID-19 emergency authorized, not approved injections, are they actually vaccines or are they not? Let’s use the right term as we think about this, as people have to think this thing through it, what is it actually?

Dr. Sherri Tenp…:            Well, we’ve been using the word vaccine ever since this drug has been fast tracked to market. And so people believe it is a similar vaccine to say a flu shot or a single shot or a pneumonia shot, but it behaves by a completely different mechanism of action because of the type of drug that it is. So it’s not going to create the same sort of efficacy, which people generally believe efficacy means that I get the shot and it keeps me protected. It keeps me from getting sick. That’s not what this antibody does. And so therefore it’s a completely different type of device. In fact, some people have been saying that it’s really not a vaccine at all, but it is a type of technology because how the messenger RNA, when it goes into your cells and begins to replicate it acts and behaves in a completely different manner of any previously developed or in utilization of vaccines.

                                             So people think that, Oh, it’s just like getting a flu shot. I’ll just go get that shot and then I won’t get sick from COVID and I can travel and I can go back to work and all these different things, but that’s not the case. How this product that’s going to be injected into your body behaves is not the same way that say a flu shot or an MMR or a chickenpox or shingles vaccine behaves. It’s never been used before in human beings. It’s never been tested long-term and when they tested it on experimental animals, as far back as 2002, when they tried to develop a coronavirus vaccine over the last 20 years, all of the animals developed advanced autoimmune disease and either were very sick when they vaccinated them or they died.

                                             And that’s the reason why the FDA never progressed a coronavirus vaccine out of animal trials, into human in the last 20 years. Because we’ve declared this to be emergency that somehow we’ve come to believe that the outcome of that is going to be different. It’s really not true. It’s something called antibody dependent enhancement. And if you pull all the research papers or that talk about antibody dependent enhancement with Corona viruses, you will see that the researchers conclude on their studies, that we must proceed with great caution in using a Corona virus vaccine in humans.

Sam Rohrer:                      And I don’t have time to go into it, but I did pull in preparation for this because I’m very big ladies and gentlemen, you know what I’m saying? Define the terms, define the terms. When somebody speaks, define what they mean, because they may mean something totally different. And that is the case with vaccine. The definition of vaccine I have in front of me from medical book and it’s standard out there, it’s a suspension of attenuated or killed microorganisms administered for prevention, amelioration, or treatment of infectious diseases. But in this one, the COVID 19 vaccine there is nothing at all related to the actual virus. So that is why it doesn’t meet the definition of vaccine among other things, is that correct?

Dr. Sherri Tenp…:            That’s absolutely correct. In fact, it’s designed to stimulate human cells to propagate pathogens. And even bill Gates said, in one of his interviews, he said, “Yes, we can make a human being, be its own vaccine manufacturer.” Well, that means that you inject a product that starts to replicate, creating an antibody that can cause a lot of harm in your body through auto-immune responses and there’s no off button. Once you’ve pushed the on button, once you inject that and you get the second shot, which actually… it makes the speed go even faster of that replication, once it’s started, there’s no off button.

Sam Rohrer:                      So in reality, Dr. Sherry, what this is, is an altering of chromosomal actions or cells, but it’s an permanent altering of cells.

Dr. Sherri Tenp…:            It’s a permanent alteration to your immune system. And when you read the science, those particles, those particulate matter of that RNA can incorporate into your cellular genetics.

Sam Rohrer:                      Okay well I’ll let that drop right there, ladies and gentlemen, hear that this is not a vaccine by definition, it works totally differently and it does enhance your immune system. And out of that comes a host of different risks, but I’ve got to go here and I want to talk a little bit about this. There are many people who don’t get this, the virus, they don’t come down with symptoms. There are treatments that have been used to help people get better if they do get it. But there was a recent study, I believe somebody in Indonesia or whatever did a study and they found some very significant facts. Would you share that with us?

Dr. Sherri Tenp…:            We look at this, that what I mentioned earlier about the people who get the flu, which is what Corona virus is and they go home and they get better. Some of them get sick enough to go to the doctor. Some get sick enough to be admitted to the hospital, a smaller and smaller subset get admitted into intensive care. And some of them don’t do very well and some of those even die. So instead of our government, looking at that population of very sick people and saying, what sets them apart? Why is it that this particular population of people get the sickest and end up in intensive care units? Well, the Indonesians did a study and they crunched all that data. And one of the things that they discovered was that people have a vitamin D, D as in David, the vitamin D level of 30 or greater have less than a 4% chance of having an adverse outcome, if they can track this infection.

                                             That’s really substantial, and what I’ve been saying in the many, many interviews that I’ve done over the last several months, Sam, is that if you’re going to run out and get tested for something, the thing you should get tested for is your vitamin D level. Greater than 30 is the normal range on most blood tests in our practice here in Cleveland Ohio, we want that therapeutic target to be somewhere between 80 and 100, for it to be most efficacious in your body to get a vitamin D level.

                                             You can get that through your doctor, through your insurance. They’re like any lab test now type services that are available online, that you can order it yourself. The people really should know what their vitamin D level is and secondarily, they should know what their zinc level is, because the other thing that made a big difference between adverse outcomes from COVID infection and people that recovered rather uneventfully was people who were taking zinc and at least 25 milligrams a day in a men up to 25 milligrams a day ongoing with a product called Quercetin, spelled Q-U-E-R-C-E-T-I-N, Quercetin, which is a plant-based antioxidant that drives the zinc into the cells and makes it work to protect you from a host of viral infections not just COVID-19.

Sam Rohrer:                      So what you are explaining there, and we’re just about done is that there are certain naturally occurring things related to our health that helps our immune system, as God has made it to respond to things that come up and in the case of COVID-19 what the Indonesian government has done. And what you’re talking about is that vitamin D levels at above 30, and you are saying zinc levels, but between 20 to 25, 25 for men, those two in combination with Quercetin, you’re saying, according to studies is very, very efficacious and should be pursued it doesn’t cost anything ladies and gentlemen. Saying, bear these things in mind as you’re considering options relative to your choice of whether or not you will end up taking the COVID vaccine investigational drug or not. When we come back, we’re going to talk about thinking carefully, choosing wisely.


Sam Rohrer:                      As we conclude this program today, and this is determining as part two of our focus on the COVID vaccine, our January 8th, 2021, just a couple of weeks ago is a program as part one. I do encourage you to go there. You can also pick up a transcript from that program with Dr. Sherri Tenpenny. And then on December 10th of last year, we did a program with Dr. Dolores Cahill from Ireland, where we opened up this whole discussion again and you can also go there, listen to that program and pull up a transcript of that. Between these three programs, you’ll have a tremendous amount of information that hopefully will help you in coming to an informed decision for you and your families with what you do with the COVID virus.

                                             And can I just talk a little bit here to you right now, as we wrap this up, I’m going to be asking Dr. Sherry in just a moment just to share personally how she would advise people to consider this entire thing. But I know that this matter of the virus, this matter of the vaccine has really, unfortunately, almost pitting people one against another, churches are divided even, that’s a shame, should not be. The culture is divided. Now the policies the government is taking is helping to divide, because they’re not overly concerned about that, but we need to be. And we’re trying to provide information to help you make an informed decision. And I know that you and I all of us, would like to take and put behind us 2020. Some of you are listening right now, you’ve lost family members precipitated by the virus, I know that. I know personally have friends who have died from this. So the impact of the virus is real, and we all want at this time, the draconian government mandates that have changed our freedoms and forced to change in the way we school our children or grandchildren, or employment, or church and family gatherings, all of those things to now moving to the case of being the cause of actually jailing right now, as I do this program, there are pastors in California being jailed because they kept their churches open and they’re facing million-dollar fines from government, for what? For what? So now there is a hope for a cure, the vaccine they say, but really it’s not. People want an option to do something to allow life to return to normal. But the powers that be say life will never go back to the way it was. So if there was a time for wisdom and discernment it is now. That makes me think of the apostle James and the book of James that says, if any lack wisdom, let him ask of God.

                                             And he will give him liberally, but God gives wisdom to the person who pursues knowledge and truth as defined by the word of God. The book of Proverbs makes that very, very clear. So we must think carefully. We must choose wisely because choices do have consequences. So Dr. Sherry, I would like to talk to you just right now, people face dilemmas. You know it, you talk to patients, you are a Christian doctor, you have a knowledge of medicine, but you have a knowledge of that which is true. What advice would you offer right now for a person listening, who maybe hasn’t decided are on the fence, or they’re considering about the vaccine? What should they do? What would you tell them?

Dr. Sherri Tenp…:            I would say for those that are on the fence, two things, one is keep investigating, keep doing your research. Don’t just blindly accept what you’ve been told by me or by anyone else, the information is out there. You need to do your own digging and research. The second thing is, if you’re on the fence right now for this particular vaccine, wait. When all of this stuff started happening back in March and April of 2020, they did a lots of surveys. And one of the surveys was about 70% of people said, as soon as this vaccine is ready, I want to take it. And now fast forward eight, nine months later, the current surveys are saying it’s up to 65% are saying, absolutely not. I will not take it, or I’m going to wait and see what the side effects are and what happens to people.

                                             That’s a huge swing from 70% saying yes to 65 saying either absolutely not or I’m going to wait. I would advise people to just wait. We don’t know what the long-term consequences are. We don’t know what the side effects are going to be. We know it hasn’t been studied in a lot of different ways. We know that so far, we just started this in April of this year, I’m sorry, in December of 2020. And we know that according to the various database, which is the vaccine adverse events reporting system that I got these numbers handed to me this morning.

                                             That so far just since the 1st of December, that in the vaccine adverse event reporting system run by the FDA, there’ve been over 6,700 reports of a vaccine, adverse reactions reported 29,000 different adverse events and 55 deaths from a vaccine that got released under emergency authorization with very little pre scientific evidence of anything that is going to keep you even from getting sick. And those kinds of numbers, Sam are staggering, 6,700 reports, 29,000 different adverse events and 55 deaths since the 1st of December…What other product not only would still be on the market with those adverse events, but would be so heavily pushed by government officials?

Sam Rohrer:                      And I think that’s a logical question objectively to raise that, some would say, and I’m glad you shared those numbers because there have been reports in the UK. Some folks went into anaphylactic shock as an example, there were individuals across this country, but a lot of those reports I’ve seen, they’re up for a while and then they’re been taken down. Now what you’re citing, you’re just gave there is off the FDA website.

Dr. Sherri Tenp…:            It’s the vaccine adverse event reporting system. It’s And the various adverse event reporting system is part of the 1986 childhood vaccine injury compensation act, it’s monitored and run by the FDA. And depending on who you read, some scientists have said that somewhere between one and 10% of adverse events are actually reported. So 6,700 adverse events is only 10%. There may be as many as 67,000 adverse events that many of them haven’t been reported because people don’t know how to report it. Doctors don’t even know how to report it. They don’t even know that this adverse event reporting system run by the FDA even exists. So if we have 60, the actual number is 6,741, 6,741 reports submitted and 29,081 different adverse events at up through January 8th of this year. So that’s within one month plus 55 deaths. I would say if you’re on the fence, just wait, get some more information, do some more investigation, see what happens because you can always vaccinate, but once you vaccinate you can’t unvaccinated and particularly not with this vaccine.

Sam Rohrer:                      That is good. Dr. Sherry, you do have a website. You’ve given some information here, we’ll take and put this on our website as well, probably We have two sites, site then we have two, probably place them on both. But you have a website as well. Am I correct?

Dr. Sherri Tenp…:            Yeah. D-R, t as in Tom, E-N, p as in Peter, E-N-N-Y and the other website where I blog and I have all of my posts there it’s called, V as in vaccine, We have a slew of writers. We have a bunch of people that write for us, and that’s our educational platform, you can read about all the different things that I’m involved with. You can listen to dozens of past interviews that I’ve done, and you can see my CV and you can see a whole lot more about my credentials and why I feel so strongly and so powerfully standing in this gap for God’s people. For God’s people need to hear it.

Sam Rohrer:                      Indeed. And that’s our purpose here. Thank you, Dr. Sherry for being with us, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you. And again, I remind you this program today will be available on our website,, go back and listen to January 8th of this year and December 10th of last year, the transcripts will be available. The program will be available. Take it, listen to it. More people listen to these programs, I think any that we have done it’s because it’s important. Go there and listen to it and share it with your friends. And with that, thank you for being with us today join me tomorrow, George Barna will be my guest right here.

Stand in the Gap Today Transcript: H.R. 350 and Government Surveillance – Is the Trap Being Set?

This transcript was taken from a Stand in the Gap Today program originally aired on March 15, 2021. To listen to the program, please click HERE.

Sam Rohrer:                      Hello and welcome to this Monday edition of Stand in the Gap Today. I’m Sam Rohrer and I’m going to be joined today by pastor Gary Dull, and in just a moment by Mark Lerner, who is the co-founder of the Constitutional Alliance.

                                             Our focus for today surrounds a bill, a bill recently introduced in Congress, actually January 19th was the date, by a representative, Bradley Scott, who is a Democrat who hails from the state of Illinois. The bill at that point had 109 sponsors and they have some more now. But it was referred at that point to three committees, Judiciary, Homeland Security and Armed Services.

                                             But just a few days ago, on March the 5th, it was referred to the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism and Homeland Security. Now the purpose of this program, Stand in the Gap Today, is not to specifically track legislation. Other groups do that. But we do however focus on matters of content within law and public policy and all matters of truth where it affects our God given or Constitutional freedoms, and it’s our duty we believe to impart the watchman on the walls to call out deception and lies and attacks in all forms that are against God, the authoritative scripture, and the Biblical world view.

                                             On this program we try to have no bias except a bias for the truth, and for that we do not apologize. As such I feel compelled to address the content of one piece of legislation, H.R…. House Resolution 350, because of it’s potential to negatively impact our freedom, our ability to preach the gospel, to evangelize, and to exercise our God given rights to worship God as we choose, for pastors to preach the whole counsel of God as it is written and as they are commanded, and for each of us to live our lives as law abiding and God fearing citizens.

                                             Taken together with the aggressive efforts of H.R. 5, the immoral inequality act as I refer to it, and multiple Biden executive orders we have to consider well that the net is being laid and we must do all we can as commanded in Proverbs 28:4 to contend or to resist… Another word for that is to strive against the wicked lest we become guilty before God, enabling or literally praising the wicked.

                                             Here’s the entire verse of Proverbs 28:4, and then we’ll get into this. The verse says, “Those who forsake the law praise the wicked, but those who keep the law,” that’s the truth of God’s word, “actually strive against him.”

                                             So our theme for today is this, H.R. 350 and government surveillance, why Americans must resist. Today we’re going to define the basis of this proposed law, which is surveillance and monitoring. We’ll define that. We’ll identify what’s in the bill, why it’s being promoted. In segment three we’ll address the key concerns about the bill, of which there are many, and during the final segment we’ll identify how you and I can best resist and oppose the elements of that bill. So all of that and more today right here on Stand in the Gap Today.

                                             With that I want to walk him into the program, right now our special guest, Mark Lerner. Mark, thanks for being with us today.

Mark Lerner:                     It’s my pleasure. I’m looking forward to the program.

Sam Rohrer:                      Mark, so are we. Let’s get right into it. We have a lot to cover, but you’re the co-founder of the Constitutional Alliance, and in that capacity your concerned about Constitutional issues, issues of rights as given to us by God assured by the Constitution.

                                             But you’re also perhaps one of the nation’s leading experts on biometrics and biometric based perhaps surveillance, but generally speaking government perspective surveillance, and you’re there in that space.

                                             Before we get into the concerns about H.R. 30, I want to go first and have you define and help lay the foundation here, so do this briefly. Please define government surveillance and briefly how it’s achieved, if you could do that, start there first.

Mark Lerner:                     I would define surveillance as either having direct or indirect access to all information, emphasis on all, regarding a person or group. The government collects that information directly by requiring biometrics or facial image, et cetera, but also indirectly by going to companies, whether it was Best Buy, Motel 6, travel agency, and paying those companies for information they collect about our activities.

                                             And then finally government uses data mining companies. Data mining companies have about 1,500 data points or more about each of us, magazines we subscribe to, where we travel to, et cetera. So all of that goes into defining surveillance.

Sam Rohrer:                      Dig down a little deeper on that. By the way, it’s a delight to have you back with us today. But in your opinion, and you’ve studied this greatly, we know that government surveillance of the enemy as a military intelligence is very, very necessary, but when the tools of surveillance are turned on or against the citizens of the United States of America that’s different.

                                             You sort of implied some of this in your answer to Brother Sam, but share with us a little bit more on how developed government surveillance is in targeting the law abiding citizens of the United States of America, and compare that in contrast to what we see in China if you would please.

Mark Lerner:                     Very simply, the government is interested in collecting all information, regardless of whether you are doing something illegal or not. They want to know everything about you. In my own personal discussions with former NSA whistleblower Bill [Benning 00:06:35], Bill went to great lengths to explain that none of us can avoid government surveillance.

                                             The difference though with China, in China the people know surveillance is taking place. There’s a great deal of transparency. With our government there’s little or no transparency, and the government has exempted itself from providing transparency by exempting itself from the Privacy Act of 1974.

Sam Rohrer:                      So, Mark, what you laid out there is very critical. Ladies and gentlemen, I hope that you heard that. Again, the theme today is this, H.R. 350, that’s a bill in Washington, we’re going to talk about it, deals with government surveillance and a whole lot more. But what Mark just said, the level of surveillance in the United States, the data points collected and all of that, is about as broad as it is in China.

                                             The difference there, the people in China know the government is surveilling them and to some degree how. Here in the United States we don’t know and it’s not transparent. Boy, that’s not a whole big difference, actually worse here in some respects, right? When we come back we’ll talk about this bill. We’ll get into what it is and why it was introduced. We’ll go there next. Stay with here on Stands in the Gap Today.


Sam Rohrer:                      Welcome back to Stand in the Gap Today. I’m Sam Rohrer. I’m accompanied today by Dr. Gary Dull and our special guest, Mark Lerner. Mark is the co-founder of the Constitutional Alliance. They have a website at

                                             Our theme today is this, our title that we’ve given it is H.R. 30… That stands for H.R. 350 and government surveillance, why Americans must resist. In the last segment we defined it, defined surveillance and the distinctions ultimately between the United States and surveillance on its citizens in China. Mark made the distinction that effectively they are the same except that what’s being done within our nation is not known to people and it is known in China. I’m summarizing that briefly, but we’ll build on it as we go through.

                                             But every bill or law that’s introduced in Congress or various states contain a few common elements. Now I’m sharing this because of my experience of being in office. Many of you out there listening are very astute and you can read bills, and it’s an art to read them and understand them, but here’s just a couple of things.

                                             There are some common elements that are in bills, so if you ever pull one up… In this one, if you go to the site and you bring up H.R. 350 you’ll look at the bill and you’ll see a certain thing. But here are a couple of common items.

                                             For instance it has the bill number. This is H.R…. House Resolution 350 in this case. There is a brief stated purpose or an overview statement that occurs at the beginning of the bill and then there’s a short title, generally section one it’s referred to. That becomes the official legal reference when referring to the bill.

                                             Then it proceeds into the writing of the bill, and it starts generally speaking with defining certain key words. Then it begins to lay out the why of the bill. There’s some intent generally factored in it, and then how it is a matter of law and how it’s to be enforced by the Executive Branch, because the Legislative Branch writes the laws, the Executive Branch enforces them.

                                             So a bill puts into a law something that is there and it tells effective the Executive Branch what they are to do to enforce it, and it gives them a certain amount of power.

                                             In this case, H.R. 350 says this. The short title is this. “This act may be cited as the Domestic Terrorism Prevention Act of 2021,” Domestic Terrorism Prevention Act of 2021. Now the short preamble purpose statement that is there says this, “To authorize dedicated Domestic Terrorism offices within the Department of Homeland Security, the Department of Justice, and the Federal Bureau of Investigation,” here’s the purpose, “to analyze and monitor domestic terrorist activity and require the federal government to take steps to prevent domestic terrorism.”

                                             That is how it all fits together. Mark, let’s get right into this. In the first segment you defined, as I mentioned, surveillance generally. I want you now to describe how this bill defines surveillance and domestic terrorism, if it actually does, and how it perhaps changes the definition of those words or phrases as now currently used, or would be used if this bill were to pass.

Mark Lerner:                     Let’s start by saying the bill does not define domestic surveillance. It does address domestic terrorism by saying acts dangerous to human life, to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, and to affect government by mass destruction, assassinations, kidnapping, and these are acts that would take place primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

Gary Dull:                           Mark, for those of us who follow what goes on in our country, what goes on in Congress as it relates to legislation, we realize that many times legislation is introduced as a knee jerk reaction to some event that took place.

                                             One illustration I think of that that most of us are aware of would be the Patriot Act following the 9/11 event back 20 years ago for example. With that in mind, and in connection with this bill, H.R. 350, do you think that this particular bill has been introduce and is being promoted as a direct knee jerk reaction to what took place in Washington, DC on January the 6th of this year?

Mark Lerner:                     Yes, I do. There’s no doubt. As Sam had mentioned, this bill was introduced January 19th, the day before Biden took his oath of office. Now as far as a knee jerk reaction, we all believed with regard to 9/11 there was some kind of wall between the Central Intelligence Agency and federal law enforcement like the FBI, but in fact the 9/11 report simply said this. Simply put, there was no legal reason why the information could not have been shared, talking about the information the CIA had and giving that information to the FBI.

                                             So the Patriot Act actually was not needed to tear down this mythical wall that we were all told existed. This is the same thing today with this piece of legislation that supposedly is going to address domestic terrorism.

Sam Rohrer:                      Now I’m going to go further on this, because in the next segment I’m going to ask you to talk about some definitions that are not in this bill. But I got to ask you one thing. I am reading the bill here right now. It’s not long. This one is not long. But section two, under definitions, number two, I’m going to read it.

                                             It says this, “The term ‘domestic terrorism’ has the meaning given the term in section 2331 of title 18, United State Code.” So that’s already a little bit of a problem, because they don’t really define it here. But here’s the question I want to ask you. It says, “Except,” so the term domestic terrorism has the meaning given in that section, “Except that it does not include acts perpetrated by individuals associated with or inspired by,” and then it goes on and it says, “a foreign person or an organization designated as a foreign terrorist organization,” or in letter C, “a state sponsor of terrorism determined by the Secretary of State.”

                                             I look at this and it would seem to me that domestic terrorism they’re saying under this… Any act of terrorism that happens within the United States one would call domestic, but they’re saying under here that if any of those acts have any connection to a terrorist organization outside the country it’s not going to be included within that. It struck me as highly odd. Comment.

Mark Lerner:                     My comment is simply this. Law enforcement in general is looking for a way to have greater powers to surveil people in the United States, US citizens, even though there may be no probable cause to surveil those people, to collect information about those people.

                                             So if they can draw a nexus to foreign terrorism great, but with this it’s not necessary. This will just give more power to the federal government, but we’re not even going to know what the power is until the bill is passed, enacted, and we find out in the rules what powers government may have.

Sam Rohrer:                      Mark, that’s the point I want to emphasize for all who are listening right now. As Mark said, there is already information gathering and sharing that is in place. The Patriot Act which took place after 9/11 tore down some of the walls providing for privacy and combined certain things.

                                             Now here comes this bill, a knee jerk reaction ostensibly to what happened or did not happen on January 6th, and will be used as the justification to further expand government authority to surveil US citizens, and by specifically saying, as I just read from the act… By specifically not involving any act that is in any way associated to any outside terrorist related group in Iran, or Muslim Brotherhood, or anybody of that type.

                                             But by keeping all of those out it focuses this whole brand new focus on really the law abiding citizen, and by failing to actually define the terms, what Mark just said, makes it open that we’ll never know really what it’s going to be about until you get rule making and bureaucracy gets involved in defining these things after the bill may be passed.

                                             So hopefully you got the idea, but the framework of it is what we’re talking about, the framework to authorize government in multiple agencies to focus on law abiding citizens under the guise of domestic terrorism without defining it really is where the real problem is and that’s why we’re raising it as an issue today. Bad law, dangerous law any time it’s written like this.

                                             When we come back we’re going to go further into actually then talking about further concerns in its application of this law, should it be passed, and it is moving, so we need to be aware. Stay with us. We’ll be right back.


Sam Rohrer:                      Welcome back to Stand in the Gap Today. I’m Sam Rohrer, and accompanied today by Dr. Gary Dull and our special guest, Mark Lerner, who is the co-founder of Constitutional Alliance, with a website at Our theme is this, H.R. 350, that stands for House Resolution 350, and government surveillance, why Americans must resist.

                                             We’ve built the foundation on surveillance. We’ve defined it in segment one, did some other things relative to its application, comparing where we are in the United States to that of China in the last segment. We talked about some other aspects of the bill, the what aspects of it, as well as a little bit of the why, a bit of a knee jerk reaction, really too exaggerated, in my opinion, January 6th event in Washington, DC.

                                             In the next segment we’re going to talk about the concerns. But before I do that I want to share just very briefly a couple of notes that just came in. A lot of you listening to this program… If you’re listening to this program you’re hearing me now, you’re listening to Stand in the Gap Today. During that last break you heard another program that we do called our Stand in the Gap Minute program, which is on probably 400 or 500 stations I think now across the country just in a singular form.

                                             We have a weekend program that builds off of a selected program from the week and we re-package it slightly and we use it on a weekend, a program that we call Stand in the Gap Weekend.

                                             I got two just came in this morning, two letters. One came from Memphis, Tennessee. One person who says, “I listen to American Family Radio there,” and I’ll leave out some things, “but normally I listen.” She said, “I just happened to tune in on Sunday evening when it’s carried. I tuned in and I heard it on the radio. I heard the weekend broadcast.”

                                             She said, “I was so excited when I heard it,” and she happened to be listening to a program that we did with our special guest from Ireland when we were talking about the vaccines and so forth, and she was so impressed with that she’s asking for some more information. But that was from Tennessee.

                                             Then one that I just got as well, this is just a short one, but it’s very nice. It actually came from an individual in Hershey, Pennsylvania. She said, “We are so appreciative listening to your weekly program Saturday on WDAC,” which comes out of Lancaster, Pennsylvania.

                                             She said, “My husband listens to your programs regularly. It’s a major part of our weekend agenda. He listens on his iPad in his skid loader on the farm as he’s mixing feed for our dairy cows.” So it’s amazing, ladies and gentlemen. I don’t know where you are right now. You’re probably not on a skid loader, but we are so thankful to hear from people who are listening to the program and being blessed. I hope that we hear from you.

                                             Go to Let us know that you are listening. Participate with us in prayer. Partner with us financially as these folks have done so that we can continue to speak the truth boldly and on more stations across this country.

                                             All right, now back into the legislation we talked about. The legislation or the making of law is both an art and a science. A political body making law possesses certain obligations to make no unnecessary law for instance. I’m talking about good law. Lots of bad laws are made.

                                             But the purpose of a law should be singular. It should be very clearly understood. Significant terms within the legislation are to be clearly defined, and that’s to be a part of the agreement upon which a person who casts their vote is clear. If they’re not clear they shouldn’t vote for it.

                                             The purpose for the bill should also be clear and honestly stated, not intended to deceive, but should be clearly transparent. All ambiguities, potentials for abuse or misapplication should be carefully considered and worked out. No bill should ever be passed where those kinds of things are not fully understood and worked out, and always no authority should ever be given to an Executive Branch for more enforcement than is absolutely necessary, and the bill should have some kind of what’s called a sunset or a termination date so that it can be revisited in case even in that process something happens in that bill that ends up being dangerous or illegitimate. Any bill that doesn’t meet this criteria should get a no vote from every person who’s in office.

                                             Mark, let’s get right into it here. I’ve spent a little bit extra time on this, but N.H.R. 350, Domestic Terrorism Prevention Act of 2021, what could a person do under this act that is not already a crime under existing law? Does that make sense? And what potential harm could this cause for God fearing, law abiding citizens?

                                             In other words, the laws are already in effect. Anybody who breaks the law, they’re already prosecuted. What does this one perhaps set up that could get an innocent person involved in doing something that they could be prosecuted for?

Mark Lerner:                     My answer is this. Number one, we already have the Insurrection Act. Essentially what that says is any attempt to overthrow the government or take action against the people who are governing it themself… Okay, so this seems to basically piggyback on the Insurrection Act.

                                             We also have hate crime bills or laws that address if a person is going after a specific group of people, whether they be black people, Hispanic people, or even white people, or abortion clinics. So we have laws that deal with opposing what government is doing and committing a “terrorist act”. We have laws against committing acts of violence against specific people or groups based on their religion, their race, et cetera.

                                             So it’s not really clear exactly what this law is intended or will do, but what we know for sure from 200 plus years of experience, it will give the federal government more power than what it already has. Otherwise there would be no reason for the law at all.

Gary Dull:                           All right Mark, you mentioned that this law, or this bill, H.R. 350 would give more power to the federal government than what it already has. Of course as we look down through history we can see that every one of these bills that are related to surveillance and other things have always strengthened and enlarged the federal government rather than reduced it, and certainly I think that should be a concern for every one of us.

                                             But specifically as you see it, as you’ve studied it, what additional powers are given under this act to government particularly as it relates to the surveillance of individuals that the government does not already have that would really cause harm to our society?

Mark Lerner:                     Reading the legislation, the only thing that any reasonable person can take away is if law enforcement felt an individual or group of people was considering committing an act of terrorism, which I again say could fall under the Insurrection Act or hate crime laws, this will allow the government to proactively follow that trail of supposed evidence that somebody was about to commit a crime.

                                             This is very dangerous, because now we’re getting into the whole idea of the thought police. Many people think about things. That doesn’t mean they’re actually going to follow through, and that’s where I’m very concerned this legislation is going.

Sam Rohrer:                      And Mark, I am too, because one of the things that I said, at the beginning of it it says, “require the federal government to take steps to prevent,” that’s the key word, ladies and gentlemen, “to prevent domestic terrorism.” How are they going to know to prevent other than lots of surveillance and lots of insinuation?

                                             Mark, they also have some key terms in here that are not defined. Pick out a couple of… In the last minute here, a couple of terms that are not defined which ought to be defined.

Mark Lerner:                     The one that really stands out is white supremacy and white supremacist. How do you define the white supremacist? If I want secure borders am I a white supremacist? If I believe we should have strong laws to protect our foreign trade and I want to reduce our trade deficit am I a white supremacist because I think we deal too freely with China or the nations of Africa?

                                             It’s not clear what a white supremacist is. That bothers me, and also the term mass destruction. When you look at the news and you see mass shootings they’re talking about two or more people, so in this legislation it doesn’t define mass destruction. Does that mean where more than one person is hurt all of a sudden it becomes an act of domestic extremism or domestic terrorism? We don’t know because there are no definitions for white supremacy or supremacist or mass destruction.

Sam Rohrer:                      Ladies and gentlemen, what I described earlier, bills that do not define the terms but use them repeatedly, are absolutely setups for activist attorneys, activist judges, and activist Justice Department and others to basically determine when and how they will pursue it, and this is why this becomes so important. When we come back, we’re going to talk about what we can do.


Sam Rohrer:                      When we started this program I quoted the verse from Proverbs 28:4 about the necessity and I’m going to suggest the obligation of all who fear God to oppose… And literally strive is the word that’s used… To strive against those who are wicked, and that includes wicked policies or laws that are wicked and God defying.

                                             It’s the concept of Stand in the Gap… We say stand in the gap with us, all right? Stand in the gap is the word that is used, in a technical sense, it’s ‘interposition’… We talked about that a week ago, Gary and I did with pastor Matt Trewhella. That’s what it means. God himself said in Ezekiel 22:30 all right, who’s going to stand in the gap? Who’s going to oppose? Who’s going to stand there before me so I don’t have to judge the nation of Israel, he was talking about then? But he was looking for someone who would strive against those who would do wicked things and put into effect ungodly laws.

                                             So opposing evil in any form, it’s always a duty for every God fearing and Bible believing person. We don’t often look at things that way, but we should, because the Bible talks about it. So how we resist though, that does vary. How we contend can take various forms, and depending on the level of wicked actions and the specificity of the wicked commands that might be levied, discussion would be more perhaps how best and how most biblically we do it, but resist we must.

                                             Mark, in regard to this legislation I want you to identify a few steps our listeners can take. They’ve heard these things, and again there’s so many different bills that are in place, we know that. We don’t spend a lot of time on bills, because in most cases they never see the light of day.

                                             But H.R. 5, which is the Inequality Act, that has movement. It affects potentially every one of us who are listening to the program. H.R. 1, which is the bill that would actually take over all of the voting, and if you liked the fraud in the voting of the last election H.R. 1 cements it into place, but they have movement to them, and the same way with this one, H.R. 350.

                                             So you’re doing some things with your organization Mark. Perhaps maybe our listeners can actually join in with what you’re doing, or maybe perhaps do it separately, so lay it out there for us please.

Mark Lerner:                     Very simply what we’re doing is we’re honoring what Christ Jesus told the disciples in Matthew 28:20. He told them to observe all things to tell others, “To observe all things that I have commanded you, and lo I am with you always even to the end of age.”

                                             So the disciples were supposed to go out and tell all people, preach the gospel to the whole world, make disciples. We have to ask ourselves how are we going to do that with the growing surveillance state, especially ones where evangelical Christians now are being targeted.

                                             What the Constitutional Alliance has done has changed from the a 501c3 to a 501c4 so we can propose legislation and while being in support of it to protect the right of Christians to go out and preach the gospel to the whole world and make disciples without having to be worried about is this going to be considered hate speech? Is this incitement? No. We have a right to do that based on the First Amendment and we have a commandment, a commitment, a responsibility to do it based on Christ Jesus’ words to the disciples.

                                             So, we’re asking people go to the, constitutional alliance one word, become a subscriber. If you go to our website today you’ll see a button that says subscriber. Please go there. Go there today and subscribe. Help the Constitutional Alliance. We’re going to be in all 50 states working with state legislators, ministries, state roots, private citizens. Help us to help you.

Sam Rohrer:                      Okay Mark. I appreciate you saying that. Ladies and gentlemen, you may not be aware of this, but the American Pastors Network is a 501c3. Mark described a 501c4. A 501c4 can actively get involved in legislation and follow that and propose legislation of all types and so forth.

                                             A 501c3 like us more focuses on the subject and the content, the principles undergirding it. So that’s why I said at the beginning of the program we in this program focus on all things, all issues that would undercut truth, anything that would attack truth.

                                             That could be a heresy from the pulpit. That could be from propaganda coming in from China or from Russia or from our own government, or anything that would undercut our constitutionally guaranteed, built upon our God given rights. That’s what a 501c3 does. That’s why the pulpits… They’re separate even from that, but that’s why pulpits and the word of God tells the pulpit to preach to all aspects of life, because the word of God speaks to all area of life, and that’s what we talk about here.

                                             So that’s why you will see us go so far on this program and we don’t go too much further. We’re not activists because we’re not set up to do that, but you are. You individually are, so we would ask you to do more. Take information and act upon it, and as we say stand in the gap. Take information and literally stand in the gap.

                                             Say no to those laws, guidelines, or whatever comes down the pike that would tell us not to do what the word of God tells us to do, or to tell us to do something that the word of God does not tell us to do, or undercuts our constitutional guaranteed God given rights. That’s how it all fits together.

                                             Gary, we’re about up. I want to go to you to conclude the program, any final comments as a pastor in the pulpit and what we’re talking about, and then conclude, if you would, in prayer for this matter and for our people who are listening to the program today to take and use it.

Gary Dull:                           I think one of the things that we need to keep in mind, Sam and Mark and everybody listening, is that it’s important that we as Christian citizens particularly become aware of what’s going on. Sometimes we are totally oblivious to what is taking place in our government.

                                             Of course here at Stand in the Gap Today we try to keep you all informed, but research these things on your own. Get involved with understanding what’s going on in government. Then build a relationship with your United States Senator and Representative as well as those who are on the state level so that you can have a personal impact in their lives.

                                             When you see a bill such as H.R. 350 or whatever the case is that will not strengthen our country, but will rather weaken it in the long run, or is completely bad law, a bad bill, I would encourage you to write your Senator or your Congressman about that, because we, the people, are the government. They work for us in Washington. They don’t dictate to us. But we must stand up and speak out.

                                             Father, I thank you for the opportunity that we’ve had to put this program together today. I thank you for Mark Lerner and what goes on in the Constitutional Alliance ministry. I pray that you’ll continue to use them. I pray that you protect them in what they do in getting out truth and standing against error. Give the rest of us as Christian citizens of this nation the wisdom, the strength, the ability of the pulpit to stand for truth and stand against error. We thank you in Jesus’ name. Amen.

Sam Rohrer:                      Amen. Amen. Thank you Gary. Thank you ladies and gentlemen for being with us today. Again in conclusion, go to Mark Lerner’s website, Find more information. Participate as you can there. Go to our website, Participate with us. Come alongside of us as we help folks like Mark Lerner and others, all of us together needing to stand in the gap.

Photo by michael podger on Unsplash

APN Applauds President Trump: Governors Must Do the Right Thing and Reopen Churches

President Donald Trump called for churches and other houses of worship to open over Memorial Day Weekend, and branded them as “essential.” He ordered governors across the nation to reopen churches and said he would override those who would not comply. American Pastors Network President, Sam Rohrer said today, “The President is to be complimented on his decision to declare all churches to be open and that the governors who remain restrictive will have to deal with him. Churches are essential to the well-being of our nation and our people.“Neither the governors nor any person in state or federal government has the Constitutional right to order any church to close or decide how they should order or arrange their worship or manner of service. For governors to single out churches and order their form of worship is for them to declare themselves above the Constitution and God. It is religious discrimination and a violation of their Constitutional oath.” Following Trump’s announcement on Friday, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released new guidelines for communities of faith on how to safely reopen. Photo by History in HD on Unsplash

Christianity, Culture, and Credibility

This transcript is taken from the Stand in the Gap Today program aired on Oct. 31, 2019

Sam Rohrer:                     Well, when I say the words skeptic or cynic, or doubter and disputer, and then I connect in even the word persecution, what comes to your mind? Well, for most of you listening to me right now on this program, that word is truth, Bible, Christian, post-modern culture. All of those things, plus, more might come to your mind and they’d be appropriate. And you’d be right because in today’s modern culture with absolute truth being rejected, actually by government and others, truth being redefined and Christians and Christian beliefs being increasingly targeted as archaic. And by some, even identified as divisive. In this rejecting culture, identifying things of this flavor also may use the word as uncomfortably restraining about Christianity and truth or divisive, or even worse. And in this climate, Christianity and Christians themselves are under attack. Worldwide. Over 300 million across this world are estimated right now, being actively persecuted for their faith in God.

Sam Rohrer:                     Well, in today’s program, we’re going to present some very powerful information that will, I believe, inform, inspire and equip you to be more confident in the truth, more convincing in your expression of Christianity. And then also to alert you at the end of the program to the level of persecution around the world so that you can better pray for that persecuted church. Our theme today is this, Christianity, culture and credibility. And with that, I welcome you to stand in the gap today, I’m Sam Rohrer and I’ll be joined today by Dr. Gary Dull and Isaac Crockett. And in segments one and two, special guest, John Dickerson. He’s a respected journalist, he’s an author, he’s a millennial and is a senior pastor. And he’s also the author of a new book entitled, Jesus Skeptic.

Sam Rohrer:                     And then in segments three and four, we’re going to invite back to this program, Todd Nettleton. He’s the chief of media relations and message integration and also the host of The Voice of the Martyrs national radio program. And we’re going to get the latest from him on Christian persecution worldwide. As we look forward to this coming Sunday, which is set aside and designated as the international day of prayer for the persecuted church. So with that introduction, so we have a roadmap of knowing where we’re going to go, I’d like to walk in right now, John Dickerson. Award winning journalist, he’s the author and lead pastor at Connection Pointe Christian Church in Indianapolis, Indiana. And with that, I’d like to welcome you to the program right now. John, thank you for being with us today.

John Dickerson :              Hey, thank you so much for having me.

Sam Rohrer:                     We’ve got a lot to go over with you and I know your time is tight and our program goes extraordinarily quick. So I want to get right into it. John, you’ve been blessed to have won national journalism awards from such people as Tom Brokaw and Christiane Amanpour of CNN, among others. Tell us just a bit, if you could right now, about your journalism career and how that has perhaps moved you into this area of what I’m going to term, investigating Jesus.

John Dickerson :              Yeah, that’s right. God did bless my career as a journalist and, simultaneously, because I was doing investigative reporting, I started attending a seminary, working on a Master’s degree almost as a hobby. And as I was investigating essentially stories, trying to help society and make the world a better place, and learning about Jesus almost as a hobby and something I enjoyed, I ultimately reached a point where I became convinced that Jesus not only existed, but is God and is the best hope for society. And ultimately walked away from my career right after winning some of those really big national awards because I became convinced that Jesus and His teachings, His way of life, are the greatest hope for the nations.

Isaac Crockett:                 John, your books, this is your fourth book, Jesus Skeptic, have really opened, I think, a lot of eyes for people. I know I’ve sent copies to different friends of them and especially this one, Jesus Skeptic. It is really well written and you can tell that it not only comes from the heart, but from lots of research. But it’s just interesting, you’re talking about being in school when you started researching things. And this has been a long time coming, I guess you could say. But really, you’re not that old of a pastor. I mean, compared to, I’m not going to throw anybody under the bus here, but Sam and Gary, you and I are the younger generation here on the radio today. And we’re, I guess older millennials, but we’re millennials and in your church as well as in your writing, there’s a lot of things that are kind of geared to people our age and younger that they can really take a hold of.

Isaac Crockett:                 You’ve really seen a need, in our day and age, for apologetics and for just defending truth. And yet, only about two to 3% of our age group, the millennials and Gen Z, really have what could be considered a biblical worldview of God. It’s so far away from being a concept of absolute truth. Why would you, a younger pastor, a younger journalist, end up writing a book about Jesus and skeptics investigating Jesus of all things.

John Dickerson :              Yeah, it’s such a great question. And I want to encourage anyone listening with this reality that I was raised in a Christian home, but for a while I was that statistic. Right now, two out of three young people raised in Christian homes are turning away from Christianity. And I would guess most people listening, they either have a child or a grandchild, a niece or a nephew, some loved one who was raised in Christianity, but turned away from it. And that was me for a season. And I remember in that season thinking, “Maybe this Jesus was made up. This whole thing is probably a myth. My parents have been duped.” And now obviously God has brought me full circle after I’ve actually looked at the evidence and now I’ve experienced the power of Jesus in my life. And so Jesus Skeptic, this book, I really wrote it with the hope and the prayer that many parents and grandparents will get this to their kids, their grandkids. Because many are doubting, even though they don’t verbalize it.

John Dickerson :              I never walked up to my parents when I was first starting to doubt and said, “Hey, I’ve been thinking maybe Jesus didn’t exist.” But I’m thankful that there were some books along the way. Books like Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell and others, that God used to show me Jesus is a historic figure. We do have writings of his are of the new Testament of his followers that are reliable. And ultimately, my prayer with this Jesus Skeptic book is to meet a young person who either has turned away or is thinking of turning away. And what’s really unique about Jesus Skeptic is there so many images and pictures of these ancient documents, ancient artifacts. So that in a generation where it’s always one person’s opinion versus another, our young people can see the truth for themselves.

Sam Rohrer:                     And John, we’re going to get more into detail on that. We actually don’t have enough time to go into another question at this point. So ladies and gentlemen, we’re going to move away to the break here in just a moment.


Sam Rohrer:                     Our theme today is Christianity, culture and credibility. Our special guest, John Dickerson. And we’re actually going to be talking to him more in depth now regarding a new book that he has written entitled Jesus Skeptic. Well, the doubters of truth and skeptics of God as the source of truth and Jesus Christ as the embodiment of truth and the Bible as the written and inspired word of truth, those doubters have existed from creation. We know that. Yet the facts, the history, the proof of the truth, and the authenticity and reality of Jesus as the way and the truth are genuine. And the impacts of the truths of Christianity on the world, on science and education, music and the arts, politics and medicine or literally all of culture is indisputable for those who want to seek the truth. And such is the experience for countless numbers of past skeptics and doubters of Jesus Christ. Well, in this segment, we’ll continue our discussion with John Dickerson about his new book, Jesus Skeptic.

Sam Rohrer:                     So John, let me come back to you right now. It’s a great title, it’s catchy. We already talked just a little bit about your journey from journalism. Having grown up in a Christian home, but you did not accept it. You pursued and went down the road and your investigation led you to the reality of Jesus Christ. So let me have you state again or go where you want to on this, but I’d like to know, to whom did you really write this book? Who is the intended audience and what is your primary hope for the person who reads this book?

John Dickerson :              Yeah, great questions. The intended audience would be the modern day Saul. Saul has become one of my favorite stories. In the book of Acts, chapters six through nine, where Paul the apostle starts off as Saul the skeptic. And God breaks through to him through that moment where Jesus invades as a shining light and says, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” But even before that, Saul was hearing the word of God preached from young Steven. He was seeing the change in Christians lives. And the reality is we live in a culture full of Saul’s who think that Christianity is backwards and prejudiced and bigoted. They don’t understand what it’s actually about. And some of those people grew up in Christian homes, some didn’t. But this Jesus Skeptic book is for all of them. And I encourage anyone listening, whether it’s someone in your family or someone in your workplace or neighborhood who’s just opposed to Christianity, that’s who this book is for.

John Dickerson :              Knowing that only God can open their eyes, but that God often uses seeds that we plant of the truth. The truth of God’s word, I’ve woven Jesus’ words all throughout this book, Jesus Skeptic. And my other prayer for this book is for our own young people. We know from Pew Research Center and other national sociology groups that America is becoming less and less Christian. In fact, more and more hostile toward Christianity. And a lot of our young people, often they feel torn between, “Do I be part of this culture that says Christianity is bad? Or do I stick with what I was raised to believe?”

John Dickerson :              Jesus Skeptic allows them to see that the choice of following Jesus is actually the choice to make the world a better place. And we show that the people who created universities as we know them, healthcare as we know it, the end of slavery and so many other things were followers of Jesus. And as a journalist, I show all of this with actual images and records so that young people can see for themselves. So that’s my prayer, that God will use this book to reach many modern day Saul’s, and that he’ll use it for many young people, especially middle, high school and college age students to really affirm their faith. And let them know, as a follower of Jesus, I’m part of the greatest movement for social good in human history.

Gary Dull:                         John, it’s a delight to have you with us and certainly I appreciate the concept of apologetics and what you’re doing there. I think perhaps many of our people will recognize you as being on CBS 60 Minutes, being a co-host on CBS This Morning, and even being, I think you were a part of the CBS election team when they’ve done their specials on elections.

Gary Dull:                         So it’s a delight to have you with us today and to hear how God has been working in your life and in your ministry. Thank you for all that you’ve done. But you know when one looks at your book, Jesus Skeptic, as well as goes to your website, they will see that you have used many images, and you’ve provided hundreds of images, actually, that anyone can share online. If you would please just share a bit of your vision for a national movement of Christians sharing these evidences that followers of Jesus Christ truly could make the world a better place in which to live.

John Dickerson :              Absolutely. And one quick differentiation, one of the reasons on my books I put John S. Dickerson is that the John Dickerson of CBS is a good friend of mine, actually, and also a believer, but not writing the kind of books that I am at this time. But I was a print journalist and did win national awards but wrote rather than being on TV. But John, the other John Dickerson is a good friend.

John Dickerson :              And here’s the prayer for this book and for this movement, is that our young people would be able to see these ancient artifacts, as well as writings. Like for example, when we talked about Christians ending slavery, we actually show the biblically based arguments that the abolitionists used. And we show those actual newspapers and writings from the 1800s all the way back to the Quakers and the 1600s. And the reason for that is that when our young people go off to college or when they enter a conversation perhaps in the workplace in their 20s, where they really encounter a skeptic. And the current of anti Christianity is so strong that they will be opposed and there will be educated people who say, “Well you don’t even know, everything you were taught was a lie. You were essentially raised in a cult.”

John Dickerson :              I remember being told that. And it shakes the young person and they think, “Well, what if everything wasn’t true?” And that’s why it’s so important, I believe, in my journey, to show them the primary evidence. So that when we tell them things like Harvard, Yale, and Princeton were all started by Christians as Bible seminaries, they can actually see those founding charters for themselves in the Jesus Skeptic book. When we tell them that the leaders of the scientific revolution, like Isaac Newton and Blaise Pascal and Johannes Kepler we’re all followers of Jesus, they can read their actual journal writings for themselves. When we say that the people who led the charge to end slavery were motivated by the teachings of Jesus, they can read those words for themselves. And that’s just so important because our message is so counter-cultural now, and especially in the next ten, 20, 30 years, what we believe is not only unpopular, but it’s becoming defined as bigoted and backward and prejudice.

John Dickerson :              And for our young people to know that Jesus and his followers actually make the world a better place, they need to be able to see these documents, or I believe it’s a great tool. Same with Jesus’ existence. We know well those ancient writers like Josephus and Suetonius and Tacitus who wrote about Jesus. And in the Jesus Skeptic book, I actually show images of their writings and ancient artifacts that show it’s very clear Jesus existed. And so that’s the prayer, that our young people would be solidified in their faith and they’d go forward to follow Jesus boldly.

Isaac Crockett:                 John, I love those examples. And in the book, when you tie in the imagery of a Keystone species and you talk about a sea otter, if you haven’t read that part of the book, all of you listening, I would really encourage you to get the book to read these things. But one of the things that I think was so shocking, and you’ve already mentioned it, is that you point out that science, that the movers and shakers and what we know as modern science, that they were led to that because of Christianity.

Isaac Crockett:                 And you said, “The greatest movement for social good, that’s what Christianity is.” And it’s not portrayed that way. And that’s what I love about your book, that it really gives that encouraging part. And I’d love to get me some more on that, but real quickly, how can our listeners get your book? I know for me, it’s been easy to share just from Amazon. You can have it ordered and sent to people’s houses or get the Kindle, electronic version of it. I was just sending out some electronic versions of it today to some friends. But what’s an easy way for our listeners to get ahold of that, of your book, and be able to share it with others even?

John Dickerson :              Yeah. It is definitely available at Amazon, at, any Christian bookstore should be able to order it as well as any Barnes and Noble. Really, any bookstore can get their hands on it. I’d encourage those listening, the audio book has a great narrator. So if you want to get the audio book online or as a CD through The book is a great tool as even when we think about Christmas coming up. If you’ve got any middle school, high school, college age, millennial age loved ones in your life, get them this. It’s a stocking stuffer if nothing else. I know my parents gave me some books like Josh McDowell’s Evidence That Demands A Verdict and those were the turning point for me intellectually. Only God could open my eyes, but it was that truth that I saw in those books that opened my mind. And that’s the prayer for Jesus Skeptic.

Sam Rohrer:                     And John, that’s excellent. And you know the reason this book fits so well with what we talk about on this program is that we emphasize the authority of scripture and the power of truth, and God’s truth alone, to transform lives. We don’t have much time left, but you were talking about some of the examples, some of the artifacts and some of the things you included in your book. Could you just pick out one, in the last minute here, one that you think was perhaps most compelling or shares the greatest compelling story, perhaps, if somebody would read your book, they really want to take a look at that one that you might identify?

John Dickerson :              Amen. The power of scripture. When we look at the charter document of the American anti-slavery society. This is a society of mostly pastors who came together about 40 years before the Civil War and said, “We will give our fortunes, we will give our freedom, we will give our very lives, everything we have, to end slavery.” And in that charter, there are no less than six scripture quotations right on the front page of that charter. And to me, it’s just one of the dozens of pieces of evidence in this Jesus Skeptic book that show it’s not a matter of opinion that the word of God leads to a free society and a prosperous society. It’s a matter of history and fact.

Sam Rohrer:                     Boy, that’s what we need, ladies and gentlemen, today, a reset in the American culture, a reset to truth. This book, Jesus Skeptic, go look it up. Get it for a gift, for a child, a grand child, a friend or for yourself.


Sam Rohrer:                     John Dickerson, thank you for being with us today on the program. What a blessing and we just pray that God takes and uses this to change a lot of hearts. Thanks so much for being with us. All right, ladies and gentlemen, we got a break coming up in just a moment and we are going to welcome in Todd Nettleton of Voice Of The Martyrs.


Sam Rohrer:                     Well, welcome back to the program. I’m Sam Rohrer. Accompanied today by Gary Dull and Isaac Crockett. Our theme today, Christianity, culture and credibility. We started by talking to pastor and author of a new book entitled Jesus Skeptic. His name is John Dickerson, about the powerful impact of Christianity on the culture and on every area of life. Since the beginning, after creation, and when doubt first came into the world at the fall, Christianity and the truth of God and God’s word has undergone opposition. Yet, in the midst of all of that, the powerful impacts of the biblical principles, when applied, have changed this world for the good. So we’re talking about, in that first segment, about the power of this book, what’s in the book that John has written. How when we look at history and we look at what we find, it has truly changed lives. That’s the power of Christianity.

Sam Rohrer:                     But while Christianity and biblical truth alone brings peace, we know that as believers, and it brings prosperity and life and liberty to any nation, it’s only those principles of God’s word that does that. The opponents of truth and the rejectors of Jesus Christ as the way, the truth and the life, and they continue to oppose the truth. Not just to disagree with it, but increasingly, actively oppose it. And as I think back in history, as did the Pharisees and the religious establishment of Jesus Day and the Roman leaders of the political establishment of his day, as they did, so do the globalist and the religious and political establishment of our day. Regardless of what nation you go to, it seems.

Sam Rohrer:                     Are unable to coexist with Christians and Jews, the opponents of truth always tend to move to aggressive persecution of Christians. That’s the history of the world and that’s what Christ says. Today, we’re told that over 300 million people are being actively persecuted for their faith around the world. So the next two segments we’re going to talk with Todd Nettleton. He’s the host of The Voice Of The Martyrs national radio program, about where persecution is happening. And how even in the midst of that, in some places, truly the gospel is growing. With that, I want to welcome back to the program. Todd Nettleton. Todd, thank you for being with us today.

Todd Nettleton :              Well, thank you for having me. It’s always good to be with you.

Sam Rohrer:                     Well, we’re glad for the work that Voice Of The Martyrs is doing, has done, and with God’s grace, will continue to do.

Sam Rohrer:                     Todd, I want to talk to you about two nations here as we get going on here, and Isaac and Gary then pose questions to you. But there are two nations that are really standing out perhaps more in the news, in these days, regarding their involvement in persecution. I’d like to get an update from you on them now. One, we’re certainly hearing about China. And with their extensively implemented and integrated almost 24/7 monitoring of their citizens, it’s very disturbing what we are hearing. Can you give us an update from what you know about the Voice Of The Martyrs contacts about China and in China? What’s happening there? What can you tell us?

Todd Nettleton :              Well, it is very disturbing. And you mentioned the monitoring of people. Our contacts have told us in China that the Chinese government, their goal by the end of next year is to have 600 million surveillance cameras active in the country. And now if you think about 1.2 billion Chinese people, 600 million is basically one camera for every two people in China. Their goal is to be able to identify and locate anyone on Chinese soil in three seconds. So surveillance cameras, facial recognition software. Think about if you’re a house church and underground church pastor in China, think about if you’re trying to secretly deliver Bibles to Christians in China. You know the government is watching.

Todd Nettleton :              Here’s the other side of that coin, though. I had the chance to sit down with a house church pastor in China. We recorded an interview that we aired on Voice Of The Martyrs radio and on our podcast. And I said, “Hey, pastor, you know the government is always watching. How does that make you feel? How does that affect your ministry?” And he said, “We do know the government is watching,” and he said, “What I have told the men in my church is, hey, the government is watching you. Make sure there is not a gap between your testimony on Sunday and the way you live your life the other six days of the week. We want the government to know the gospel is true. And they’re watching us, so we have an opportunity to live out the gospel. We have an opportunity to be an example of how Jesus changes peoples lives and changes peoples hearts. Since they’re watching anyway, let’s use this as an opportunity to witness.”

Todd Nettleton :              So, yes, the persecution is harsh. Yes, the surveillance is harsh, but the believers there are saying, “Hey, if the government’s watching anyway, let’s use it as an opportunity.”

Isaac Crockett:                 That’s incredible. It reminds me of the apostle, Paul, when he was praising the Lord for being bound to these Roman soldiers that he could witness to them 24/7. Now I guess it’s big brother over there doing that. The guest that was on our program just a few minutes ago, John Dickerson, and his book for skeptics, he talks about the fact that the countries that have the most freedom for women and the best human rights, that they are Christian countries founded on Christian principles. And the top 10 worst human rights, he shows they all persecute Christians, which is no surprise to you at Voice Of The Martyrs.

Isaac Crockett:                 But you talked about China. Can you talk about Iran? That’s another one of those big ones where Christianity, there’s really seems to be a growth of people, like a revival waiting to happen there. But as far as the government goes, they’re trying to crack down and they’re really persecuting Christians. Could you maybe expound upon that for us?

Todd Nettleton :              Absolutely.

Todd Nettleton :              They are certainly persecuting the church, but they can’t stop it. This is one of the amazing things and, frankly, the government of Iran is nervous about that. They are scared because whatever they do, they can’t stop the growth of the church. One of the most sort of counterintuitive things that I think I’ve ever heard is having Iranian Christians tell me that the greatest Christian missionary in the history of Iran was Ayatollah Khomeini. And we hear that and we say, “Well, wait a minute. He’s the one who led the Islamic revolution. How could he be the greatest Christian missionary?” And they will go on to say, “Well, over the last 40 years since that revolution, our government has told us everything we’re doing is according to Islamic principles. Everything we’re doing is according to the Koran. We are going to run our country exactly how Mohammed would run it if he was still alive.”

Todd Nettleton :              40 years later, the country is broken, the economy is in shambles. There is so much corruption in the government. The drug addiction rate of the people is one of the highest in the world. And the people say, “Well, wait a minute, if this is what 40 years of doing it the Islamic way leads to, then Islam doesn’t work. Look, we’ve got the proof. We can look at our own country and we can see Islam doesn’t work.” So I’ve heard estimates as high as 70% of Iranians have rejected Islam. They would tell you, if they could have a an honest conversation, “Islam doesn’t work, I don’t believe it.”

Todd Nettleton :              So the gospel is then going in and finding fertile soil and finding open hearts because they’ve already rejected Islam. They already have a mindset that there is a God, there is one God. And so if you can present Jesus as the son of God, and many times, they have a supernatural encounter with Jesus and they say, “Wow, Jesus is God.” And that fertile soil, that seed just grows and produces fruit. There is so much hunger for the gospel. But as you say, there is persecution. The government’s cracking down. They are particularly focusing on leaders, leaders within house groups, leaders within churches. And they’re facing arrest, they’re facing intense pressure.

Todd Nettleton :              And one of the challenges, and this is a point for prayer for the people who are listening, once a person has been arrested, it is very hard for them to get back involved with the church because the other people in the church know, “Hey, this guy got arrested. The government is watching him. If I invite him over to my house for fellowship, if I invite him over to my house, the government’s going to start watching me too.” And so once someone is arrested, there is a real sense of isolation that they experience. And that’s the part of the persecution that we don’t think about. We think about, hey, if you’re out of jail, then your persecution is over. But that’s another part of it and that’s something we can pray about for our Iranian brothers and sisters.

Gary Dull:                         Indeed, that’s a good prayer. And I appreciate you bringing that up, Todd.

Gary Dull:                         In a recent podcast of your Voice Of Martyrs radio program, you interviewed Pastor Andrew Brunson, who was held in the Turkish prison for many years. And we’re very thankful to Donald Trump and his administration for working to get him released. But according to your interview, Pastor Brunson highlighted the fact that his ability to maintain hope and vision was, in part, inspired by Voice Of The Martyrs. I think that’s great. Can you share this with our listeners please?

Todd Nettleton :              Yeah. And I would encourage people, and again, I don’t want to sound like I’m promoting VOM or promoting my own radio show, but I would encourage people to listen to this conversation because Pastor Andrew Brunson is very honest about how difficult those two years in prison were, about how much it challenged his faith. And even at one point, he thought he was losing his mind. He was worried that he was going insane because of the pressure and because of the stress. But one of the people that inspired him was the founder of the Voice Of The Martyrs, Richard Wrumbrand. Now, Richard has gone on to eternity, but he has left his books with us. And somebody delivered to Andrew Brunson, in prison, some of Richard Wrumbrand’s books. And Andrew began to read them. And Pastor Wrumbrand’s example was a challenge and an inspiration to Pastor Brunson. And he writes in his book about one of the things that that Wrumbrand did was he wrote in one of his books that, “Hey, the Bible tells us when we’re persecuted, we’re supposed to rejoice.”

Todd Nettleton :              And so the thing that pastor Wrumbrand did in his cell is he would dance, and he would say, “Lord, I don’t feel like rejoicing, but when we’re rejoicing, we dance.” And so he danced in his cell. Andrew Brunson took that example and put that into practice in his own cell, in prison, in Turkey. And he said he did it purely as an act of discipline, purely as an act of the will. “Lord, I don’t feel like celebrating, I don’t feel joyful, but out of discipline and out of submission to your word, which says we’re supposed to rejoice, I’m going to dance as if I were-

Sam Rohrer:                     And amen. We’re going to have to break away for a break here.


Sam Rohrer:                     Well, as we now move into our final segment of this very important emphasis today, we’re going to, in just a moment, close in prayer. I’m going to ask our special guest, Todd Nettleton. He’s the host of the Voice Of The Martyrs radio program. And Isaac and Gary and myself, if there’s time, to take and do exactly what we’re asking to be done and that is to pray. The scripture says throughout that really there’s a principle there that when the body of Christ rejoices, we should all rejoice. When one suffers, we should all feel that suffering. In all cases, we should be bringing in prayer before the Lord, all of those who are certainly of the household of faith, that’s what we need to do, it’s God’s plan. Well, this coming Sunday, the first Sunday of November is designated as the International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church of which we’ve just been speaking.

Sam Rohrer:                     So many across this world, right now, are under active persecution. The numbers are estimated to be 300 million or more. And it’s in many, many countries. We need to pray for those individuals, obviously most of them, you and I, as we listen to this program and are participating, we don’t know who they are. But that’s why we need to pray because the Lord knows who they are and He will hear our prayers in those kinds of cases.

Sam Rohrer:                     So Todd, let me just ask you for a just a quick response before I ask you to pray and lead off for us, but as you deal with persecuted Christians, from your perspective, if there would be one most often heard prayer request, of those who are persecuted, if they were to say, “If the Christians of the world would pray for us, this is what we would ask them to pray for,” What would it be?

Todd Nettleton :              The prayer request that they have is an interesting one and a convicting one. It is pray that we’ll be faithful. Not pray that our persecution will end or pray that our government will change or whatever that might be. Pray that we will be faithful in spite of the persecution that we’re forced to face.

Sam Rohrer:                     All right, ladies and gentlemen, did you get that? Those who are persecuted, and in this country we have just the first tinges of it. Most people who are listening right now, we’ve not experienced persecution like many around the world are. But as you just heard Todd say, those who are persecuted, truly persecuted for their faith are not asking that, “Lord, remove the persecution,” but, “Lord, give us the strength to endure that our light may shine and the truth of the gospel community.” That’s really what they’re saying. That’s an amazing thing.

Sam Rohrer:                     Todd, if you could, please, go to the Lord in prayer, pray for those things as you have mentioned and then just a minute or two would be fine. And then Isaac, I would like you to follow and then Gary, if you could then follow Isaac. And then depending on the time of the program, then I will close in prayer. Let us do exactly what we’re encouraging all of you listening to do. Pastors, that you do, and lead your church in prayer this Sunday as we pray for the persecuted church. Todd, would you head, please?

Todd Nettleton :              Father, I lift up the members of our family, your family, who are being persecuted around the world. Lord, we do pray that you will encourage them and help them to be faithful in spite of suffering, in spite of discouragement, in spite of enemies of the gospel coming against them. Lord, I also pray that through your Holy spirit, supernaturally, you would let them know, right even at this moment, that someone is praying for them, that they are not alone. They’re not forgotten, they are part of the wider body of Christ. Just remind them of that fact right now, Lord, and encourage them.

Todd Nettleton :              Lord, I also want to pray specifically for Pastor Raymond Koh, who was kidnapped in Malaysia. For his wife, Susanna, who doesn’t know, two and a half years later, what happened to her husband. Is he alive? Is he dead? Where is he? Lord, would you, right now, sustain that family? And we pray for Pastor Raymond in captivity. We pray for Susanna and for their children. Encourage them, give them strength. And Lord, we pray for change. We pray that the Malaysian government will reveal what happened to him and where he is and return him to his family. Lord, we’re thankful that we’re a part of your body and that we can lift up each other’s hands during hard times. In Jesus name.

Isaac Crockett:                 Amen.

Isaac Crockett:                 Father, we do come to you now asking for you to strengthen all of us, but especially for our brothers and sisters in bonds and in persecution. We pray that they would be faithful. We pray that you would just work and empower them in a special way, as was written in Romans eight by Paul, that there’s nothing that shall separate us from the love of Christ. Not tribulation, not distress, not persecution, famine, nakedness, peril or sword. For your sake, many of our brothers and sisters are being slaughtered like sheep. But in all these things, we are more than conquerors. And so we pray right now, dear Lord, that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, things present nor things to come, that there’ll be no height, no depth, no creature under the sun that would ever separate any of your chosen from the love of God, which is in Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Isaac Crockett:                 We love you. Father, we thank you for your protection and your guidance, your strength, even when those who hate you come after us. We pray now that that strength and that guidance, that patience, that love, that all of the fruits of the spirit that you give us through your spirit, that your spirit would work in your children, your sons and your daughters to your glory, to your praise and for our good. It’s in the name of our powerful, conquering savior Jesus Christ, we pray these things

Gary Dull:                         And Father, I say yes and amen to everything that’s been prayed. And I think particularly to bring another name into it, of an American Christian pastor who is a hostage over in India, Pastor Bryan Nerren. Lord, he’s been over there serving you for about 17 or 18 years in Nepal in India. And he’s been arrested because he’s a Christian. Father, I pray for him and others who are in that same category. I pray, dear Lord, that you’ll give them the boldness to stand firm, that you’ll give them the strength that they need to be a witness, even in the face of what they are dealing with. And Father, through their lives, it is my prayer that you will be glorified. Their prayer is that they will be faithful. And I pray that, indeed, will give them the strength to do that and we’ll give you the praise for what you do in Jesus name.

Sam Rohrer:                     And heavenly Father, as we are so privileged to come into your presence here, four of us on this program leading in different locations across this country, joined by hundreds or thousands across this country who are also listening and joining in prayer. Lord, we are grateful that you’ve made it possible that we can bring our request right before you, right into your throne room. And that you will hear and answer. We lift up those who are imprisoned, those who are being actively persecuted for their faith around the world, give them strength, oh Lord. May their faith not waiver. May their light burn brightly and may the strength and the power of the gospel be communicated through their lives and through their examples to those who would be their oppressors, oh Lord. I pray also for those who are in positions of government leadership. Your purposes for them are to praise those who do well and to punish those who do evil.

Sam Rohrer:                     They will give an account, Oh Lord, for either what they are doing in their persecution or to protect those who are persecuted. So we pray for them because they also will stand before you one day. And I pray, Lord, for those in our country, those of us listening right now who have been the recipients of such blessing and peace for so long, as we witness the tearing away of the foundations that have given us that blessing and peace. And as we see persecution looming on the horizon, may we be more active than ever. Oh Lord, in letting our light shine for you, being that salt and that light as you’ve designed us to be. We pray for these things and we committed to you, in Jesus name, amen.

Sam Rohrer:                     Well, Todd Nettleton, thank you for being with us today. As you represent Voice Of The Martyrs as their radio host and for all that you do as a ministry, we thank God for what you’re doing and we pray the God will hold you-.