American Pastors Network: Celebrating Five Years of Equipping Pastors to ‘Stand in the Gap for Truth’

(EDITOR’S NOTE: A multi-part series looking back at the impact of the American Pastors Network over the past five years.)

Serving as a pastor can sometimes be a thankless job, with few in the church who can truly identify with the role and appreciate the “always-on-call” nature of the position.

But for five years, the American Pastors Network (APN) has helped equip pastors with resources, insight, encouragement and culture-changing information that help them educate their congregations to “stand in the gap for truth” alongside other members of church leadership.

Throughout November, APN will reflect on its five-year anniversary, on God’s provision and all the blessings bestowed upon the ministry since its inception in 2013. The Pennsylvania Pastors Network began in 2005 in the first capital city of our nation, Philadelphia. From this one state chapter, APN was birthed. Today, APN celebrates that the national network of pastors has started eight state chapters over the years with many in the wings to launch additional state chapters. Currently, APN state chapters exist in Arkansas, Michigan, Missouri, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Virginia and West Virginia—with three others preparing to launch.

As it looks back on five years of ministry, APN asked three state chapter presidents this question: “As a busy pastor, what was it about APN and its mission that persuaded you and your state leadership team to assume the leadership of your state pastors network?”

Tim Berlin, president of the Michigan Pastors Network, says the answer is twofold.

“I love the emphasis APN puts on the pulpit ministry,” he said. “I completely agree with the fact that we (must) motivate those to whom we serve and those to whom we lead in the church to have a biblical worldview and to approach the issues of the day from the Bible. The Bible teaches us in 2 Peter that (God’s Word) has all the answers for godliness in this world and so that we can live godly. We have all the answers to approach every issue with a biblical worldview and a biblical perspective, and that way, God can be glorified through any and all circumstances and any and all issues of the day. We ought to be teaching and preaching from the Word of God to help our people respond properly to the things that are going on in the world around them.

“I have (also) really appreciated APN’s emphasis on sharing the Gospel with political leaders,” Berlin added. “We are servants of God as called by God to minister in the local church, but they are ministers of God called and appointed by God to serve in public office, and yet many of these have a soul that will spend eternity without Christ if we do not share the Gospel. So we have adopted the premise that we’re going to teach them the Gospel before we try to discuss policy or positions on different issues. We want to build a relationship that allows us to share the Gospel.”

Dale Walker, president of the Tennessee Pastors Network, echoed his fellow leader’s sentiments.

“I’m bi-vocational as many pastors are,” Walker said. “We had a loose group of pastors prior to becoming associated with the American Pastors Network, but the strong biblical worldview to stand in the gap was exactly what attracted us to APN—that we could come together under the umbrella of American Pastors Network and make a major difference across our state and unite Bible-believing preachers to stand in the gap for our country and our nation and our state and our counties and our communities.”

Keith Carnahan, president of the Missouri Pastors Network, said the need is great for a national network of pastors because there are always forces vying for pastors’ time and energy.

“We need to energize the pastors in their pulpits,” he said. “We need to get them to engage in the culture. I’m 65 years old, so I see that the younger generation of preachers hasn’t had the opportunity to understand some of these issues—the battles we’ve been fighting.”

APN President Sam Rohrer said that APN leaders were called and moved to form a ministry that would serve as a nationwide network of biblically faithful pastors and their church members whose objective would be to build a permanent infrastructure of like-minded Christians who would: affirm the authority of Scripture; take seriously Jesus’ command to be the “salt and light” to the culture; encourage informed Christian thinking about contemporary social issues; examine public policy issues without politicizing their pulpits; and engage their congregations in taking part in the political process on a non-partisan basis.

“We’ve stayed true to that mission, and God’s blessings have been miraculous,” Rohrer said. “So much has been done with so little. There have been no single deep pockets, no large benefactor and certainly no government funding. Yet God has done great things in five years.”

Specifically, APN has made tremendous strides in media, through both radio and television. APN has three national radio programs—“Stand in the Gap Today,” “Stand in the Gap Minute” and “Stand in the Gap Weekend”—airing on hundreds of stations and reaching millions each week. The programs consider the most important global concerns from a biblical and constitutional perspective. Rohrer also hosts a weekly television program, which considers transcending cultural issues from a biblical worldview perspective. “Stand in the Gap TV” airs on several networks, including WBPH in Philadelphia, VCY-TV in Milwaukee and Upliftv nationally.

God and Guns: Discussion on our First Amendment Freedoms

Sam Rohrer:                               Well, the importance of the First Amendment and religious freedom is first among the bill of rights, which obviously it is. First Amendment, religious freedom is right there, because of its primal role in maintaining civil freedom in our nation. Now that freedom’s been under severe attack by many in government and in the media for really a long time. Donald Trump seems to understand the necessity to restore the right, particularly for Christians to be able to speak moral truth and to live a Christian life as they believe the bible defines it to be.

Sam Rohrer:                      Today on this program, our theme is going to be the First Amendment, from guns to religious freedom. In segments two to four, we’re going to talk with special guest, constitutional attorney David New about Attorney General Sessions’ formation of a religious liberty task force. Then we’re going to talk about Secretary of State Pompeo’s pronouncement that US foreign policy is going to be guided by the goal of advancing religious freedom worldwide.

Sam Rohrer:                      Now in segment one, we’re going to talk with legislative counsel to gun owners of America, Mike Hammond is his name, about how the First Amendment ties in with the Second Amendment, in the current controversy of the ability to 3D print firearms. Now listen this will be an interesting conjecture. Well, not conjecture but a nexus. All of this is going to be more here on today’s edition of Stand in the Gap Today. With that introduction I’d like to welcome you to the program.

Sam Rohrer:                      I’m Sam Rohrer and I’m joined today by Dr. Gary Dull and our special guest in this first segment, Mike Hammond, who I mentioned is legislative counsel for gun owners of America, whose website can be found at Mike, thank you for calling in today and joining us on the program for this first segment.

Mike Hammond:              Thank you for having me honorable Sam, and hello America.

Sam Rohrer:                      Well I’ll tell you Mike, we’re glad to have you on and this is what it’s going to be about. We got a big issue. We only have about 10 minutes in this first segment, but there’s a current controversy out there, that’s being engaged in across the country. It stems from a decision by a Texas judge to prevent companies from disseminating the plans by which guns can be made by the new 3D printing process.

Sam Rohrer:                      On one hand, this is a First Amendment issue because it talks about the ability to communicate freely. But on the other hand, it’s a Second Amendment issue because it concerns guns, and a number of the states attorneys general have filed a claim to stop the communication of these plans, citing that it will impinge upon their firearms control act within the various states. At this point, Mike, I’m not yet seen a good analysis of this controversy, and I know of no one better qualified than gun owners of America and you to give some clarity. This is the question I want to pose first. Is this controversy a First Amendment issue? Is it a Second Amendment issue or is it even more than that?

Mike Hammond:              Well it’s both a First and a Second Amendment issue. It’s a First Amendment issue because of this. That program that allows you to make that gun with the 3D printer is basically computer code, just as everything else that goes over the internet is a computer code. Well, what the government tried to do, and what eight states are now trying to do is say that certain types of computer code should be illegal because of the content of the information they convey.

Mike Hammond:              Now the First Amendment is not absolute in any sense. The same analogy or metaphor is that you can’t yell “Fire!” in a crowded theater, but basically you’re talking about a suppression of speech which really doesn’t have much of a purpose here. The plastic guns which would be created by this computer code can fire about, without a metal barrel, can fire about two rounds before they blow up in your face. With the metal barrel, they are detectable by metal detectors. Bullets are detectable by metal detectors, and even plastic guns without barrels or bullets are detectable by x-ray machines and by body scanners. You have a suppression of First Amendment rights for no purpose whatsoever other than the fact that there’s some people in America who don’t like guns.

Sam Rohrer:                      So you’re saying that basically, even if a person downloads the code and can print themselves out something made in plastic, it doesn’t work much anyways but the point you’re saying is limiting code or qualifying what is an appropriate code is the problem. If that’s the case, a host of other things could be limited by governmental action of determining what’s good or bad as well. Is that correct?

Mike Hammond:              Yeah, basically.

Sam Rohrer:                      Okay.

Mike Hammond:              When anything that you disagree with. As the listeners to your program probably know, those people who run around with their hair on fire screaming about the primacy of the First Amendment when it comes to articles in the New York Times or Washington Post or broadcast on MSNBC, have no problem suppressing speech when it’s speech they disagree with.

Sam Rohrer:                      Okay. Now all right. We’ve got about two minutes here. I want, one final question. And as I said we’re only going to be able to touch on this, but you went to the heart of that and I appreciate it. This is the other question I have. In simple terms, since citizens do have the right to own and use firearms, and while that right has been limited by law, we know, in a number of ways, even then, do citizens have the right to make their firearms if they are able to do so? Therefore, whether they choose to do it by 3D printing or any other method, do they not have that right to do so and must not that right be protected if it’s there?

Mike Hammond:              Yes. In virtually every case, the law recognizes the right of an individual to make his own firearms for his own personal use if that firearm doesn’t travel in interstate or foreign commerce. That is the law, irrespective of whether it’s constitutional or not. You have the right to make your own firearm. My guess is that if Brett Cavanaugh gets on the Supreme Court, you’re going to see a lot of the laws which currently exist, particularly in states like New York or California, just completely blowing up.

Sam Rohrer:                      Meaning? You brought him up.

Mike Hammond:              Meaning that a lot of laws which is exist are almost certainly unconstitutional and will probably shortly be found to be unconstitutional but the right to make your own firearm, for use by yourself, in your own home, is something which even the law recognizes.

Sam Rohrer:                      Okay. All right, so how do you think this is going to come around? Do you think the judge is going to turn in on his decision?

Mike Hammond:              Currently the State Department has entered into an agreement with Corey Wilson, the Texas code maker that he can continue to send his code over the internet. Now eight states have gone into three different liberal jurisdictions and tried to get orders preventing that court from validating that agreement. If one court is allowed to interfere with the actions of a higher court, particularly the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, that’s going to be a very interesting outcome. I don’t think that would be considered reasonable, contest other than a crazy liberalism that we’re facing now from the anti-gun movement.

Sam Rohrer:                      All right, well Mike Hammond, and legislative counsel for gun owners of America, which you can go to their website and I encourage you to do so. Great organization. Mike, thanks for being with us.

Mike Hammond:              Thank you.

Sam Rohrer:                      And taking us right to the heart of a very thorny issue. I want to get you back at some point.

Sam Rohrer:                      Well the foundation of the freedoms that we enjoy in the United States, found its root in the pursuit of religious liberty, and that started with the pilgrims and went to the Puritans and William Penn of Pennsylvania and many others. While our nation remembered this foundation of freedom to worship God without governmental restraint, while we did that, America has been blessed.

Sam Rohrer:                      But when this freedom has been undermined, belittled, redefined or attacked, as it has been in recent administrations, God’s blessing has been diminished, along with it. Now under the Trump administration, great efforts are being made to restore the fullness of the First Amendment, starting with the president signing a relationship freedom statement over a year ago. But now, two notable events coming in sequence after that, have occurred in this administration. We believe that they both noteworthy and need to be discussed. One of them is domestic and the other has to do with international, which we’ll talk about that in the next segment.

Sam Rohrer:                      We’re going to discuss this now with our special guest, constitutional attorney and historian and author David New. But before I bring him in and ask him his opinion, let me play about two minutes worth here of a longer presentation by Attorney General Jeff Sessions, where he just announced the formation of a religious liberty task force. Now enjoy what he’s saying. Listen to this.

Jeff Sessions:                     This president and this Department of Justice are determined to protect and advance our magnificent heritage of freedom of religion. Freedom of religion is indeed our first freedom, being the first listed right in the First Amendment. This has been a core American principle from the beginning. It was one of the reasons this country was settled in the first place. The promise of freedom of conscience brought the pilgrims to Plymouth, the Catholics to Maryland, the Quakers to Pennsylvania, Scot Presbyterians to middle colonies, Roger Williams to Rhode Island.

Jeff Sessions:                     Each of these groups and others knew what it was like to be hated, persecuted, outnumbered and discriminated against. Each one knew what it was like to have a majority try to force them to deny their natural right to practice the faith they hold dear. Our founders gave religious expression a double protection in the First Amendment. Not only do we possess the freedom to exercise our religious belief, we also enjoy the freedom of speech.

Jeff Sessions:                     Our founders’ understanding of and commitment to religious freedom was truly brilliant. It was historic, really. It arose in large part from the principles delineated in the Virginia statute for religious freedom and its effective, brilliant advocates Madison and Jefferson. These guys were ferocious. This weekend I was reading Gary Wills’ fabulous, “Head and Heart,” in which he quotes extensively from Jefferson’s statute for religious freedom in Virginia. I commend all of it to you, but one line stood out in particular to me. “That Almighty God hath created the mind free and manifested his supreme will that free it shall remain, by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint.”

Sam Rohrer:                      Wow, and there was a whole lot more to that presentation, ladies and gentlemen, but you got the essence of what the attorney general was saying and what a difference from previous administrations. I want to bring in right now, David New. Thanks David for being with us. You’re a constitutional attorney. We’ve talked a lot about matters of freedom and religious freedom, but when you heard what I just played there, with Attorney General Sessions, was there an overarching message that he was delivering in this statement? If so, what do you think it was?

David New:                        Well one of the great themes of world history is a fight between two positions. Is God above the state or is the state above God? You go back in world history, and you’ll see different regimes in the world answer that question differently. As the vice-president said in his speech, 83% of the population of the world do not enjoy religious freedom. That’s because their governments say the state is above God.

David New:                        There’s a reason why they do that. There’s a reason why religious freedom is not popular with governments. I’m going to use the modern term, and I don’t mean to be irreverent when I use it, but if you have God above the state, what you in effect allow, is God to be a separate power center from the government. The governments don’t like that.

Sam Rohrer:                      Okay say that again. It’s worth repeating. Say that again.

David New:                        If you allow God to be above the state, which is what most of the governments of the world don’t want, because God becomes a competitor to the state. It becomes a competitor to the government. God becomes and is a separate power center within the culture. It limits government. God limits government through the process of voting and through the process of the people. Tyrannical governments don’t like that. They don’t want to be limited by God or anything else. That’s why most of the world does not have religious freedom because governments don’t want to be constrained by God.

Sam Rohrer:                      So what you are saying there is that, effectively, the overarching message that Attorney General Sessions made was that he acknowledged a biblical worldview position, that recognizes that God is above all, and that includes government. That is a startling distinction and difference from previous administrations, is it not?

David New:                        Absolutely. That is one of the great debates in history. Is God above the state or is the state above God? That’s the big fight. America has said, God is above the state. The secularists, the secularists who are gaining power in America, their position is, the state is above God, and that’s why they’re going to lead us into tyranny.

Sam Rohrer:                      Gary, let me go to you right now. We all listen from our perspectives. David New is an attorney, constitutional attorney. You’re a pastor. I’ve been in office. I preach. We all have a little different perspective. When you listen to that presentation by the Attorney General, what was it that stood out to you that really caught your attention?

Gary Dull:                           Well actually Sam, there were two things that stood out to me, and I appreciate Jeff Sessions bringing this out and it’s brought out clearly and it needs to be heard. That is number one, as it relates to our first freedom. He said that the reason why this country was settled in the first place, was for this freedom. You know, the freedom of religion, the freedom to be able to practice one’s faith as we see fit to do so. That’s something that people across this country need to know today.

Gary Dull:                           But then the second thing that he brought out, that I really appreciated, that we need to herald, because we are living in a day and age, when people are trying to suppress it. That is the double protection that we have in that First Amendment. That number one, we’ve got the freedom to practice our religion, to practice our faith. Not only that, but in the United States of America, according to the wisdom that God gave our founders, we’ve got the freedom to talk about it as well.

Gary Dull:                           That freedom goes far beyond what any liberal or secularist or communist would like to try to take away from us today. Those are two points that he brought out that really stood out to me, that we need to promote more and more I believe. I’m glad he said it. I think that was just great.

Sam Rohrer:                      I did too. David New, let me go back to you on that, because Gary referenced something there, those freedoms. That they are there. One thing we’ve talked about a lot and you’ve talked about it. Freedoms and having them down there in the First Amendment, the Second Amendment and all of those things, that’s very, very important, but what is our citizen’s duty, relative to those freedoms? We have to exercise them and if we don’t, don’t we run in trouble? Talk a little bit about the responsibility to recognize and exercise those freedoms, lest we lose them.

David New:                        If you don’t use it, you lose it. Now I want to say something about the First Amendment by the way, because you hear this all the time. Everybody’s right when we say, well the freedom of religion is the first freedom listed in the First Amendment, that is correct. But historically, the First Amendment was number three on the list of Bill of Rights. It wasn’t number one.

David New:                        The first, when the Congress sent the Bill of Rights to the states, they sent 12 amendments. 12, not 10. The first two failed to pass. The third to the 12th passed. That third was the First Amendment. The original First Amendment had to do with apportionment. Now if you want to read the original Second Amendment, go the 27th Amendment of the constitution of the United States. It was ratified in 1992, exactly the same wording. It is the original Second Amendment, but it took 203 years to pass. When people say religion is our first freedom, you need to understand what that means. It doesn’t mean it was first on the list because originally, as I said, the First Amendment originally was number three. It becomes number one because the first and second fail to pass, but the second that was sent to the states in 1789 along with all the other amendments, it was ratified in 1992. All during World War I, World War II, nobody knew it, but we were still ratifying the original Second Amendment.


Sam Rohrer:                      Well ladies and gentlemen, we’re going to continue talking about this because the Attorney General did mention that when the Quakers came, the Puritans came, the Pilgrims came, the Scottish came, the Roman Catholics to Maryland, all of that, he did say the importance of the driving passion of people to come here. That is a fact as well. So all these things go together into what we now has as the First Amendment.

Sam Rohrer:                      Let me shift now to the matter of religious freedom on the international level. The First Amendment, the foundation of religious liberty and the entire concept that all rights come from God is essential for all of those in positions of authority, if freedom as we have known it, is to endure both here and around the world.

Sam Rohrer:                      Anyone who’s in position of authority, if they don’t understand that, and David New talked about it earlier on, it’s a view. Either God is above government or government is above God. That mindset is critical in how policies are implemented and put into place. The leadership of the United States though, in matters of truth and freedom have existed for generations, and nations around the world today owe their freedom today, to the United States because of our commitment to religious freedom and an understanding that those rights come from God.

Sam Rohrer:                      Not only has the Trump administration through Jeff Sessions the Attorney General in announcing the new religious liberty task force, Secretary of State Pompeo last week initiated a new ministerial to advance religious freedom. That was the name of it. Ministerial to advance religious freedom. He did that on a worldwide basis and there were people from all over the world who came to Washington DC. Listen to just a minute of what Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said about this initiative. I think you’ll also be encouraged by what he said.

Mike Pompeo:                  This year more than 80 delegations, including dozens of minister level representatives from around the world are here today. Thank you for making this cause a priority in your country. Thank you for working with us. My own faith is of the greatest importance to me personally. As an American I’ve been blessed with the right to live out what I believe without fear of persecution or reprisal from my government.

Mike Pompeo:                  I want everyone else to enjoy this blessing too. President Trump’s unwavering commitment to religious freedom and to decision to hold this first ever religious freedom ministerial is not driven by my own personal story, but rather it is rooted in the American story. The Trump administration recognizes that religious freedom is a fundamental American liberty, and this has been clear from the administration’s earliest days and indeed the earliest days of our nation. The United States advances religious freedom in our foreign policy because it is not exclusively an American right. It is a God-given universal right bestowed on all of mankind.

Sam Rohrer:                      Wow, that’s pretty powerful. David New, I’m going to go back to you. First right off here, I asked you your opinion of what Jeff Sessions said. Now I’m going to ask you what you think about what Mike Pompeo just said, in light of the fact, how aggressively the Obama and Clinton administration used taxpayer dollars and the State Department’s position using taxpayer dollars to leverage other nations to advance the cause of abortion, the LGBT agenda and they did nothing, literally nothing to help persecuted Christians around the world. This, by Mike Pompeo and the State Department and this administration is nothing short of an amazing turnaround. Give me your reaction to what Secretary of State Pompeo said in that last clip.

David New:                        Well as former Senator Barbara Boxer of California said, “Elections have consequences.” God has blessed America with a new president and a new Secretary of State who have their priorities straight. I say straight not just in terms of rank, but I mean in terms of family values as well. Now, what’s being stated here is something that’s very, very important. There is a very, very thin line between religion and politics. The line is so thin it’s almost imperceptible. Most Christians don’t think of it that way, but it’s quite true. If you want to read a powerful political statement … It’s a spiritual statement, but it’s a very powerful political statement and it ultimately resulted in the American revolution, turn to the book of Ephesians.

David New:                        The second chapter and verse 8, this is not only a spiritual truth. It is a political position. It is a political statement. “For by grace,” there’s the key word, “For by grace are you saved by faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift,” there’s the second word, “Of God.” Where does that give the government power over religion? It immediately throws it out. The doctrine of grace eliminates government from controlling religious freedom.

David New:                        Salvation is not something the government gives you. It’s a gift that cuts the government out. Now, how did this affect the American Revolution? Samuel Adams is the father of the American Revolution, but before Samuel Adams, there was George Whitfield, and George Whitfield went around all over the colonies in the 1730s and so forth, and the ’60s and all that. He was saying you’re saved by grace and that not of yourselves, and that it’s a gift of God. What does that mean? That means that the king of England, who says he’s the head of the church and that the king’s soldiers who are God’s soldiers, guess what that does? It ruins it and eliminates it. It makes it possible for Americans to shoot at the king’s soldiers and not fear hell.

Sam Rohrer:                      Wow. David, that is a wonderful piece of news. You go into the heart of it again. You said it in the first segment. It’s either God above government or government above God. Now you come back in to say again, that if the king is God, it’s one view because the king is actually government as the same time. If you change that, you change the entire view of politics.

David New:                        Yes.

Sam Rohrer:                      Policy.

David New:                        Absolutely.

Sam Rohrer:                      And everything that happens. Gary, let me go to you right now for your opinion here. Because we’re talking about this from the standpoint of how we as Christians and constitutionalists view these policy statements made by the Attorney General and Secretary of State Pompeo on matters of religious freedom. We can draw a contrast between now and what we saw in the previous administration. I’m more concerned even about what God thinks about that. Gary can you just kind of give us a biblical perspective of how God is looking down on these things that we’re talking about? Can you bring some biblical focus on this now to us?

Gary Dull:                           Oh I would say right to the point, that I think that as God looks down upon these freedoms that we are talking about today, that in a great many ways have been restricted or were on their way to greater restriction, and as we see these freedoms growing today, I think God’s pleased with that. But you know, what a change. Think about it, Sam. What a change. For instance, we heard what Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said about his own personal faith in that statement that he gave, and we know that he’s brought Sam Brownback on to work with him as it relates to religious freedom here in this country and around the world.

Gary Dull:                           Now, where I’m going with that is here. I was involved eight, ten years ago, when we were working to get Susan Johnson Cook into the State Department to be the ambassador at large for religious freedom under Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. You remember that Sam? I think you probably remember us talking about that. Never, ever, ever did I hear such a clear statement from Hillary Clinton, the Secretary of State or Barack Obama, the President of the United States concerning religious freedom as we are hearing from our current Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo and our currently President Donald Trump.

Gary Dull:                           Now Susan Johnson Cook was an advocate of religious freedom indeed, but she was restricted. She told us personally how restricted she was in doing certain things. I don’t think that there’s any restriction right here with Sam Brownback, with Mike Pompeo, under the administration of Donald Trump. I’ll tell you what. It’s the difference between black and white. It’s the difference between day and night. I’m thankful for what we’re seeing today, and I think God’s pleased with it too.

Sam Rohrer:                      Gary I think that he is as well, because when this happens, it reflects again a biblical worldview that David New, you called out, that we talk about a lot on this program. For that God will bless, but countering that ladies and gentlemen, does not bring God’s blessing, but actually judgment on the country. This is a right direction.


Sam Rohrer:                      The First Amendment is first with religious freedom at the front for a reason. We went through a little bit on the program today how it actually got there, but our founders knew, its foundational importance when they came to our country. We’ve already talked about it and Dave mentioned it, David New mentioned it. Our pulpits exercised that freedom by boldly declaring the truth of God’s word and a biblical worldview. That helped to set the stage for an emerging nation to be able to adopt and accept the principles of the declaration, ultimately the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and our whole concept of justice. It all came from that.

Sam Rohrer:                      Yet it seems that we now have a culture with little memory of what it took to maintain freedom, to start freedom, to maintain freedom, be it the First Amendment, the Second Amendment, all the way to the Tenth Amendment. The question is what are the basic pillars of thought that must be in place for our nation to maintain religious freedom and our First Amendment that has so blessed this nation. We’ve talked about it, the contrast between the last administration and what we’re now seeing, with these recent decisions of Attorney General Jeff Sessions and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo.

Sam Rohrer:                      Now David, you’ve already delved into this a little bit, but I want to ask you form a historical perspective here, how specifically were the tenets, these underpinnings of religious freedom defined by the pulpits in America? You’ve referred to all this a little bit. What were they and to what degree are these tenets being undermined today?

David New:                        Well there’s no question of that the pulpits of America were instrumental because George Whitfield said we’re saved by grace. We can fight the king’s soldiers, who they think represent God. But it goes even deeper to that. I wanted to go into a little bit about what the Attorney General said about Thomas Jefferson’s bill for establishing religious freedom. That was bill number 82 out of 126 bills.

David New:                        Thomas Jefferson considered that bill 82 as the foundation for religious freedom in America and the Supreme Court considers it as well. They cite bill 82, the bill for establishing religious freedom as the way to interpret the First Amendment. What’s important about that bill is this. It is not based on secularism. The bill 82, our religious freedom doesn’t come from secularism, especially in the modern sense of the word, the post-Darwin sense of the word.

David New:                        Our freedom of religion is based upon God and that’s what Thomas Jefferson believed. Let’s look carefully at the very first sentence of what Jefferson said in bill number 82. By the way, of the three things listed on Jefferson’s tombstone, one was his authorship of the Declaration of Independence. The other was his foundation of the University of Virginia. And this bill, number 82. He won international fame because of this bill number 82.

David New:                        What he did once he got it passed, or Madison got it passed for him in 1786, he sent copies of that bill all over the world, and that grew his reputation. Now here’s the first sentence, and the Attorney General quoted it in part. It says, “Whereas Almighty God,” now you see that word Almighty God ladies and gentlemen? El Shaddai, Genesis 17:1. That means religious freedom is not based on secularism. It’s based upon God. It goes on.

David New:                        “Whereas Almighty God hath created the mind free and that all civil governments who try to interfere it are as an ends of the persons are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion.” This excludes the modern concept of secularism that the ACLU promote. They say if you want to have a lot of religious freedom, promote secularism in the post-Darwin sense of the word, and that is false. If you want to have religious freedom, you promote secularism in the pre-Darwin sense of the word which means God is the source of freedom.

Sam Rohrer:                      Gary I want to go to you right now. You’ve laid that out just perfectly well. Gary, the modern culture, and we talk about it in this program a lot. Bringing to bear biblical worldview principles to impact our culture. Well, we know, we’ve talked about it a lot. The role of the pulpit in America has been greatly diminished. The value of it, let’s put it this way, the viewed value of it by the culture has been diminished. Not diminished in God’s eyes, but it’s been diminished in the eyes of the culture.

Sam Rohrer:                      Many pulpits we know have gone incredibly silent on matters of applying biblical principles to these issues, what we’re talking about right here. As a culture, I think without question, we’ve turned our worship of God who as David said clearly, it’s either God above government or government above God, we’ve turned it from God and actually put government or at least the creation of man of some type in front of it, a dangerous perspective, which is what makes these statements by Attorney General Sessions and Mike Pompeo so significant. But Gary, this is where I want to go with you. You’re a pastor. You’ve been preaching for a long time now. Is it possible for religious freedom in this country, the basic tenets of what we believe and hold and have, is it possible that that can continue without the pulpits reawakening our people to who God is?

Gary Dull:                           No. That’s what the pulpits need to do. You know, Sam, it’s interesting you ask that question, and of course, you know taking into consideration, this word, the reacquaintance with who God is. You know there are three statements that I render often, probably once a sermon or at least close to it when I preach here. Thank God the church at Altoona, Pennsylvania is this. We need to get to know who God is, what God expects, and how God operates. Until we get to know who God is, what God expects and how God operates, everything’s going to go awry.

Gary Dull:                           Preachers in the pulpit need to preach that. People in the pew need to search it out and believe it and we need to proclaim it. One of the reasons why we’ve got the freedoms that we have today is because the pulpits were strong in the day on who God is, what God expects and how God operates. Yes, we need to get reacquainted with who God is. Then everything else, Sam, would come into order, as God would have it to be.

Sam Rohrer:                      Gary, that’s a great way to conclude. Ladies and gentlemen, we often say our fourth segment is our solutions segment. I think all of us listening, we understand the value … Let’s put it this way, to some extent we understand the importance of religious freedom. When we start to get squeezed, we understand it even more. When persecution becomes prevalent we understand it even more. What Brother Gary just said there is really what it is. We have to understand who God is, what God expects, how God operates. If he’s not on top, government is, or something else, and at that point, it’s upside down and God cannot bless.

4-6-18: What Every Christian Must Know About Islam

Dave Kistler:                 Well, ladies and gentlemen, a federal judge recently told school officials in San Diego, California, to reveal details of their work with an Islamic advocacy organization that has been designated as a terrorist group. Of course, by that designation it puts them in the same classification as ISIS itself. Now a legal team in that fight says it has issued investigative subpoenas to the California chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, otherwise known as CAIR, as part of a federal civil rights lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the San Diego United School District’s anti-Islamophobia Initiative.

The case is being handled by the Freedom of Conscience Defense Fund, which is working on behalf of parents in that particular school district. Now, here’s the problem: The district’s multi-year program was developed under the direction of CAIR as a holistic plan to protect Muslim students and their families from bullying and discrimination. As part of the initiative, staff and students are taught by CAIR officials to become allies to Muslim students. And CAIR is empowered to revise school curriculum to portray Islam more favorably.

You heard me correctly: CAIR is empowered to revise school curriculum in order to portray Islam in a more favorable light. Well, the Freedom of Conscience Defense Fund is seeking communication between CAIR agents in the school district as well as documents tracing the Islamic organization’s strategic process for gaining inside access to impressionable school children. CAIR’s national director testified that proselytizing to school children is a “religious obligation” and that the purpose of CAIR’s educational outreach is to do precisely that, which includes passing out religious propaganda to students during class and attempting, according to CAIR itself, to create a religious educational environment.

The chief counsel for the LCDF, the group that’s fighting this, explained it this way. He said, “Through deliberate manipulation, CAIR has gained unprecedented power and influence over San Diego’s United superintendent and school board, and these subpoenas seek to answer questions about the extent of CAIR’s infiltration into the school district. And with that, I want to welcome you to Stand in the Gap Today. I am Dave Kistler. I’m your host today, and along with me to share the radio microphone is Gary Dull, the co-host today. And all this week, we’re going to be doing programs that unveil the evil that is Islamic ideology.

Many of you will remember the incredible poem the president recited during the campaign in 2016. He’s recited it at a rally or two since becoming president of the United States. That poem is called The Vicious Snake. And so our theme today is this. Exposing the Vicious Snake: An Expose of Islamic Ideology and its Grand Design for America.

To help us with our discussion today we have as our special returning guest Tom Wallace. He is the founder of Fortress of Faith. Tom is not only an Islamic scholar, he is also a theological expert and a former missionary in the United Kingdom. And so Tom, I want to welcome you to the program today. Thank you so much for being aboard.

Tom Wallace:               Dave, always it’s a joy to be with you and Gary. And I appreciate you guys dealing with this topic. I came off the foreign mission field to warn my countrymen of the dangers of Islam that is not just creeping into our nation, but sweeping. I think we are … I’m amazed at how fast things are developing here. So I appreciate you guys taking the time to cover this topic.

Dave Kistler:                 Well, Tom, you are one of our favorite guests. We always get great feedback when we have aboard. You’re also host of your own radio program. I would like you to say a little more about that before we end the program today. But let’s go to this topic of what’s going on in the San Diego United School District. CAIR, which of course as you well know, is a front group for the Muslim Brotherhood, has gained access to and unprecedented influence over America’s school children in that one particular school district, if not other districts around the country as well.

My question to you, Tom, is this: Does this surprise you or is this the modus operandi, the MO for CAIR in how they infiltrate a community, infiltrate a school system, even infiltrate our government?

Tom Wallace:               Not in the least. I’ve been warning people about this here for about 10 years now, and let me give you a quote from Omar Ahmad. He gave this down in Southern California back in 1998. He thought he was speaking to just a room of Muslims, but a reporter from the San Ramon Newspaper was there, East Bay Times. And this was July 4th. Now, Omar Ahmad, you need to understand who he is. He is the co-founder of CAIR. He and Nihad Awad founded CAIR many years ago.

And let me quote what Omar Ahmad said: “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. In the Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America and Islam the only accepted religion on earth.” Now, they have two faces. They speak one thing to their Muslim community, and another face that they speak to the American public. And they build themselves, they fashion themselves as the civil rights organization to protect civil rights. But they are a Muslim Brotherhood front group.

What’s interesting is that the UAE, the United Arab Emirates, a full-state nation has not only designated the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization, but they’ve gone as far as identifying CAIR, the Council of American-Islamic Relations, as a terrorist organization. It’s very clear that the connections, if you follow it, you trace it, it’s not very difficult to follow this. But most of America is asleep at the wheel. We are not aware that this group is operating for the demise, the destruction of our country from within.

Gary Dull:                     Tom, this is very interesting that you bring this up, but my question is how are Muslim groups so effective in gaining access today when so often Christian groups are never granted that same access?

Tom Wallace:               Isn’t it ironic we as a Christian nation, Christians are treated as the stepchild, the ugly stepchild here, and Islam is being embraced at every attempt. When Obama was our president, any opportunity he had to oppose or support Islam, he always went to support them. We see this happening so much, but let me give you really why all this is happening. It’s a spiritual battle we’re in.

Dave Kistler:                 Tom, let me hold you right there for just a second because we’ve got to go into the break. Ladies and gentlemen, about five days ago a video surfaced of Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel attending a meeting of Muslims where both Israel and one of his sheriff deputies spoke in Arabic. The meeting was held at one of the local Mosques. It was held during the month of Ramadan in 2015. So we’re talking about three years ago. The deputies said that Israel pledged to keep young people out of jail and to put “God first, your family second, and the community third.”

Now, I know what some of you are thinking: “Dave, what is wrong with that?” Sheriff Scott Israel of the Broward County Sheriff’s Department wants God first, family second, the community third, but he’s speaking in a mosque where the God of the Islamic community is Allah, and he is not the same as the God of the Bible. So there’s where the problem comes in. In that meeting, Israel speaks in Arabic to a group of Muslims. He credits his deputy Nezar Hamze as a like-minded individual who’s on the same mission as Scott Israel, the sheriff. And Israel compares himself and Hamze to lions on a mission.

Both Israel and Hamze boast that they want to keep young people out of jail rather than put them in jail. Israel says that he puts troubled young people in a program where they will get help with narcotics and other issues. This is a direct quote from Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel: “I want to put God first, my family second, community third.” And then Hamze, the deputy sheriff, who is a Muslim and a member of CAIR there in Florida quotes Israel as telling the sheriff’s office team the same thing.

Israel says, and I quote, ‘”here is only one perfect person: God. And you’re not it, and I’m not it. We make mistakes. Police make mistakes every day. And I understand that. And that’s why we have to partner with our community. Why is Nezar Hamze,” his Muslim deputy police chief, “here? Because as a man who studies Islam and as a Muslim, he’s going to find out information that we can’t. He’s going to bring information back to the community and take information from the community back to us.” And, again, this is Sheriff Scott Israel of the Broward County Sheriff’s Department speaking, and, again, Nezar Hamze, his Muslim deputy sheriff, who is also a member of CAIR.

Now, I want you just to listen to a brief clip of this 2015 meeting. The voice you’re going to hear first is … In fact, actually I think the only voice you’ll hear will be that of Nezar Hamze, the Muslim deputy sheriff in Broward County. I want you to listen to how charismatic he is. I want you to listen to him speaking in Arabic and then in English, getting ready to introduce the sheriff of Broward County to this Muslim Mosque. Russ, let’s listen to the clip.

Nezar Hamze:               [Arabic 00:10:58], brothers and sisters. Allah [Arabic 00:11:01] has blessed us with another Ramadan. [Arabic 00:11:05] Allah. Allah [Arabic 00:11:06] has locked the Satan, and [Arabic 00:11:09] the sheriff continues to lock the bad people in jail. Al-ḥamdu li-llāh. Brothers and sisters, I wanted to stand here before you today. Lisa? Is Lisa here? She needs to come up. It’s important that we hear from our community, inshallah. I won’t take much time, and I’ll introduce the sheriff. But I want to testify before you, brothers and sisters, because it’s important for you to hear from us, inshallah.

Al-ḥamdu li-llāh. A couple of years ago I had an opportunity to witness our sheriff be sworn in. And he said something that resonates with me, and I want to share it with you so you know the type of individual and what he does. He said regarding our youth, our children, because we all focus on our children very much, he said he’s going to measure his success by how many kids he keeps out of jail and now how many kids he puts in jail. [Arabic 00:12:05].

Brothers and sisters, this was an indicator for me that this man is a straight man. He is a man of honor, of [huck 00:12:13], of justice. Al-ḥamdu li-llāh. I had another opportunity to hear him speak, and he was talking to his team, the employees, the deputies, the people that protect you on the street. He said, “I want you to put God first.” Listen to me. This sounds like [inaudible 00:12:31]. “I want you to put God first, your family second, and the community third.” [Arabic 00:12:40].

Audience:                    [crosstalk 00:12:41].

Nezar Hamze:               Brothers and sisters, this is the reality. This is the man that is our sheriff.

Dave Kistler:                 Ladies and gentlemen, that is an amazing clip that you just heard. And, Tom, I want to go to you immediately. You heard the introduction give to Sheriff Scott Israel. He then speaks in Arabic briefly and then in English the rest of the time, during which he insinuates that God is the same for Islam as he is for Jews and Christians, and on and on I could go. This man, I’m talking about lead chief Scott Israel and his deputy chief Nezar Hamze, were the ones who presided over, ladies and gentlemen, the failed attempt at protecting the innocent school children at Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. Tom, to be honest with you, I’m speechless, and I would love to have your thoughts on all of this.

Tom Wallace:               Now, I’ve seen that clip. Of course his deputy chief is dressed there in his deputy sheriff’s uniform, but listening to it just over the radio, the way you played that, at first I was thinking, my goodness, this man sounds like our former president Obama and when he’s addressing the Muslim community. It sounded so much like him. It brought back memories.

Yeah, one thing I think we also need to mention is that there’s a video of the sheriff dressed there and the chief deputy, they’re dressed in his Muslim garb, training this mosque, this Muslim community how they can and should protect themselves with guns. You’ve seen him with his Glock 19 there. They’re demonstrating how to protect yourself with guns, citizens or this Muslim community, and yet this very same Sheriff’s department is very much against teachers being armed and protecting our children there in the school system. I find that very ironic.

Now to address the Muslim sentiments and the Islamic sentiments that are being shared here by the Sheriff’s Department. One thing our American community needs to understand, in the eyes of Muslims, the God of Allah, the God of Islam, the God of Muhammad to them is also the same God of Moses, and of Abraham, and of Isaac and Jacob. The God who created heaven and earth, the God who created Adam and Eve, in their minds, they’re all talking of the same God. Every Muslim usually starts this conversation with me when I talk about my faith and their faith, “Oh, well, we have the same God.”

And I respond with this: “Oh, wonderful. That’s great. So then your god has a son?” Then they get this confused or mean look on their face: “No, for Allah hath no son.” Then I say, “Oh, well then we don’t have the same God because my God, Jehovah God, has a begotten son, Jesus Christ. So clearly we do not have the same God.”

But the point that they’re trying to make is that putting God first is that they’re trying to say, “We’re going to put Allah first. We’re going to keep your sons, your Muslim sons out of jail. We’re going to protect them.” And, yeah, it is kind of concerning that he’s addressing the Muslim community with this message.

Gary Dull:                     You know, Tom, for nine minutes, I say nine tragic minutes, we know that none of the Broward County police on the scene there at Stoneman Douglas entered the school building as kids and teachers were basically sitting ducks and being massacred. Then for 29 minutes, one of those police officers didn’t enter, but told the others to “Stay 500 feet away” from the building where the shooting was actually occurring.

And I know many people have asked this question, but I ask you what in the world is going on here? Why are Islamic police officers unable to really swear allegiance to the United States of America, to US law and really protect United States citizens?

Tom Wallace:               Now, Brother Dull, you have just raised a very interesting question. I believe that’s probably the most powerful question that should be asked: Can we trust Muslims to be loyal to the laws of America and also remain loyal to the tenants of Islam? Is that possible? My answer to that question is a resounding no. Absolutely not. If they’re going to be a loyal, faithful Muslim, they cannot be loyal and faithful to the laws of America because Islam will not permit it. They have a system that is an antithesis to the system of America. We cherish freedoms: freedom of speech, freedom of choice, freedom to choose who you worship, or not worship at all. Islam does not give that permission at all.

We get to choose who governs you. Islam doesn’t give that choice. Those choice and those rights, well, they’re not rights. They are things that you do not have rights to in Islamic form of a system. And so when Muslims swear allegiance to the Bible or rather to the American Constitution, to protect it, they’re either lying, or they are not a faithful Muslim, and I think that it’s that they’re lying to us. I think that’s been demonstrated time and time again.

Dave Kistler:                 Tom, what you’re sharing is very important information. It’s very disturbing. And ladies and gentlemen, there’s something about the Parkland shooting that makes no sense at all to me. It’s beyond odd that the heavily Islam-friendly, Islamic-infiltrated police force in Broward did nothing to stop the shooting for nine minutes or longer.

Ladies and gentlemen, this woman’s name you may or may not have heard. Her name is Barbara Sharief. In fact, her full name is Barbara Muhammad Sharief. And she is an American politician. In fact, she has been a Broward County, Florida, commissioner since 2010. And in 2016 she was reappointed as mayor of Broward County, having previously served from 2013 to 2014. And she’s the country’s first African-American female and Muslim mayor. You’re hearing me correctly.

In the same county where Stoneman Douglass high school is that has a very Islamic-friendly police department in the form of Scott Israel, the police chief and Nezar Hamze, the deputy police chief, who is a committed Muslim, member of the organization we’re talking about today called CAIR, Council on American-Islamic Relations, the mayor of Broward County is also a Muslim.

Now, why am I bringing that up? Friends, if you know anything about London, England, you know that Sadiq Khan is a Muslim mayor in that city of London, and he has clear ties to terrorists–that is a documented fact. It was him who after the killing of 22 innocents at an Ariana Grande concert said the following: “We are going to have to get used to terrorism.” In other words, terrorism in London, terrorism in England, terrorism in the United Kingdom, it’s the new normal, something with which we’re going to have to become accustomed.

So, Tom, I want to go to you. You’ve sighted this earlier in the program in segment one that you left the United Kingdom as a missionary there to come back to the United States of America to warn our nation, specifically to warn the church in America about a diabolical, sinister, demonic enemy. So my question is this: Why are Muslim mayors, Muslim law enforcement official, Muslim City Council members, why do people that are committed to Islamic ideology in those positions, why do they present to America an incredibly dangerous dilemma?

Tom Wallace:               Well, can I bring your attention to a document that was found by the FBI back in 2011? It was a document that was written by the Muslim Brotherhood, the Ikhwan. And it was found, the FBI found this in the home of Ismail Elbarasse back in 2011. He is a teacher or was a teacher in Virginia. The FBI became suspicious of him. I won’t get into background of this story of that, but they raided his home and found in his basement a secret room. And in that room was a cache of documents and media.

The prized piece of document that they found was a memorandum from the Muslim Brotherhood to the group in North America. Let me read to you from Page 7: “The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying Western Civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house.” Now get this: “by their hands and the hands of the believers.” So what are they saying in this document from the Muslim Brotherhood? “We’re going to create a Jihad–Jihad is a holy war, a struggle against evil–“to eliminate Western Civilization.” How? “From within.” How are you going to do it? “Sabotage their house by their hands.”

We’re going to incorporate their own hands, their own system, and the hands of the believers. And on the back page it lists about 14 different groups that were complicit, that were working with the Muslim Brotherhood as front groups here. Now, the FBI has used this document as a court piece of evidence in the trial, what we call the Holy Land Fund Trial, in Dallas, Texas. During the Bush administration they were starting to put these people away in jail.

When Obama became president and Eric Holder became the new attorney general, he stopped that, and CAIR and ISNA and a number of these other groups there were designated as unindicted co-conspirators. They were getting around to prosecute these people, but they never got to it because of Eric Holder. And we need to press our current attorney general Sessions to reopen that case. All that there is waiting to be done, but that’s another issue.

Now let me return to this judge. They are putting key people in government, judges, mayors, police chiefs. They are jockeying for these positions. They’re training for these positions. And in England, in the United Kingdom, there are four hijab centers. I lived just two to three miles from one, and they are organized to train bankers, politicians, teachers, and they’re working to develop these people to get into government positions. This has been going on in the United Kingdom for since the time I’ve been exposing this and talking about this. And this is also operating here in America. I don’t know where they’re located. They’re a little bit more careful in hiding these locations of where they’re training these people.

Actually, I think they’re training them right underneath our nose in our institutions and setting them up because they’re being funded by CAIR, by Muslim Brotherhood, and they’re wealthy because we keep buying Saudi oil. So we’re funding our own demise. I know I sound like a conspirator, or talking about conspiracies and stuff there, but, folks, this is happening, and we’d better wake up to it.

Gary Dull:                     You know, I think this is a thing that we need to wake up to, Tom. It almost appears to me is that the average American is either blind about what Islam is doing or doesn’t want to understand what Islam is doing. And I wonder what the thought is among those who are leaders in our nation. You mentioned the attorney general, Jeff Sessions, that he needed to look into this again. Will he? Does he understand what is going on within Islam?

And as we understand it, Tom, it appears as though for years Islam has been working on infiltrating into government here in the United States of America on every level. So this isn’t anything new, as I understand it. It is something that’s been going on for a long, long time. And then to hear that statement that you rendered here a moment ago where they’ve written regarding us that they will sabotage their house by their own hands, that is critical.

And so my question to you is this: What about those who say we, those of us who are concerned about Islam, are overeating, or are just Islamophobic, or are crying wolf? How do you answer those critics who refuse to see what really is going on in front of our own faces?

Tom Wallace:               I remind them of how people reacted to Winston Churchill when he was trying to warn Britain about the bully, the tyrant of Hitler, that they ought to pay attention to him, that appeasement is the wrong move. It’s only going to give him time to get stronger, and they need to deal with him. They need to put that down. But they didn’t listen. They thought he was a crazed man, a crazed [inaudible 00:26:52] go away and just let’s just create an environment of peace as much as we can. And it doesn’t work. Appeasing a bully never works. It never has worked. Historically we can see that it’s dangerous. And many people died as a result because they didn’t listen to Winston Churchill earlier. And there were other people that tried to warn, but they didn’t listen to him.

And we have a new bully on the block. Back in the ’40s it was Nazism, it was Hitler. Today it is Islam, and they are infiltrating here. The thing that’s an advantage for Islam is that it’s fashioned, it’s designed under the face of a religion. So therefore it has rights to be practices here, and they can send their apostles around our country to spread their poison and to work their destruction from within. And the Muslim Brotherhood realized that. That’s why they, I believe, I’ve been saying the Muslim Brotherhood is the most dangerous terrorist organization on the face of the earth because they have identified our weakness, and they’re exploiting it. And we’re asleep at the wheel.

So far our government has not called the Muslim Brotherhood a terrorist organization. There’s a bill H.R.377, House Resolution 377, that the 115th Congress has put out there. It has a lot of co-sponsors there to get this bill out of committee and get it on the floor to designate the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization. Can you believe it, that our own country will not designate the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization when other countries have? That blows my mind.

Dave Kistler:                 Tom, let me jump in. We have about 45 seconds until we’re going to have to go to the break. I want to ask you this and ask you to respond very quickly. Obviously the Muslim Brotherhood and Muslim entities are strong opponents of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. They are fighting to get guns out of the hands of the general American populous. Talk about that for just a second, why it’s so important that we stand up and defend the Second Amendment because of the threat Islam poses.

Tom Wallace:               Every tyrannical government knows you cannot operate if the citizens are armed. You have to disarm the citizens if you’re going to control them with a dictatorship type of government, and that’s the Islamic way. The Islamic government is a dictatorship. It always has been. That’s what Muhammad gave them, and that’s why they practice the very same thing in their governments. You cannot have that if the citizens are armed, if they can fight back. And so naturally, yeah, it’s in their interest to see us disarmed, so they’re going to oppose the Second Amendment because the Second Amendment keeps us safe.

Dave Kistler:                 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Stand in the Gap Today. I want to say this at the outset of this critically important final segment of our program today, in fact, it’s a segment we commonly call our solution segment, and I want to say this: Our discussion today is not meant to foster hatred for anyone. Our topic today is not directed primarily at people. We are addressing an ideology today that is beyond dangerous. Yes, adherents to that ideology have done, and are doing, and will continue to do very evil things, but we are to love those who are enslaved in any false ideology, including and I would say even especially the false ideology of Islam. These folks that are adherents to it have been enslaved by a deception. They have been lied to, and the only way they’re every going to be delivered from that deception is if we love them enough to tell them to truth and declare to them the glorious, life-changing, eternity-altering gospel of Jesus Christ.

But the ideology that they’re espousing itself is evil. I think Dr. Franklin Graham said it as well as it could be said when he called many years ago Islam an evil religion, and it is precisely that. It is an evil religion. I am not the least bit reticent to say that. Gary is not the least bit reticent to acknowledge that. Tom as an Islamic scholar is not the least bit hesitant to call Islam from an ideological standpoint precisely what it is: a deception, a lie, an evil ideology.

And so, Tom, I want to go to you. Obviously America has to deal with this evil ideology. It’s anti-God. When I say “anti-God,” I’m talking about the true God. It’s certainly anti-American. It’s anti-constitutional. And so in very practical terms, Tom, what can be done? What must be done in the United States of America to deal with this vicious snake that is making its inroads in rapid fashion across the United States of America?

Tom Wallace:               First of all, let me say, Dave, thank you for making that point that this is not to bash Muslims. America needs to understand they need to separate Islam from the Muslim. Please do not blame the Muslim for Islam. The Muslim is a victim of Islam. I have been saying this for years, and I’m just as passionate about us resisting Islam as I am about rescuing Muslims.

Muslims are victims. It’s an ideology that’s going to send these people to hell. They need the truth, and praise God we as Christians, we have the answer: It’s the word of God. And if we can only a Muslim into the Bible, and I’ve seen it happen so many times, that if we get them reading the scriptures with us, and they realize that they’ve been lied to, and they see the light of the scriptures, and they come to Christ. And so I’m also the founder of Missions to Muslims. I am as actively about trying to evangelize Muslims as I am actively trying to resist the ideology of Islam and warn people of it. What’s the real solution? A Holy Ghost revival in our country.

Gary Dull:                     Amen.

Tom Wallace:               I have been trying to tell Americans that God is raising up Islam as an instrument of judgment upon us because of our sin. We have sinned against God. He have angered God. We’re foolish to think that we can continue in our wicked living here and expect God to wink at it and look the other way, and continue to sing God Bless America in spite of our wicked sin.

Folks, God is angered and God is raising up our destruction if we do not repent. I believe that Islam is the very element that will bring us to our knees and destroy us, and bring us to humble ourselves and repent if we … But we can volunteer to do that. We can admit, “God we were wrong. We have foolishly thought that we could run our own ship without you. And we need to fall on our knees and repent.” And I believe God is bringing us and showing us destruction is coming our way if we continue, but we refuse to see it.

Dave Kistler:                 Gary, let me do this, because that is a take on this entire topic that you very seldom, in fact I don’t know if I’ve ever really heard it worded quite like Tom worded it, but with his statement, I completely concur, and I could tell you did as well because you uttered an Amen. The answer to this entire dilemma is nothing less than revival in the United States of America. And I believe Tom is 100% correct. I think Islam is part of God’s judgment on America, is God allowing us to have what we have desired to have independent of him. And that is we’ve tried to live our lives arrogantly, very superficially, to be sure, in violent disregard of him, and so this is the consequence.

So if revival, Gary, is the answer, and I’m firmly convinced it is, you are a pastor. What must take place inside the church? What must take place from the pulpits of America to facilitate, or if I could use this phrase, “fan the flame” of a revival in America? What must they place inside the church and especially from the pulpit?

Gary Dull:                     Dave, there’s no doubt that we need revival in America today, and I know that it disgusts you as well as it does me, and I’m sure Tom also when you hear some Evangelicals saying, “There will never be another revival in this nation.” I don’t like that. I think there could be another revival in America, and I think we need to pray for that.

But revival is simply defined as when God’s people get right with God. Think about that, ladies and gentlemen. It’s when God’s people get right with God. There are so many things going on in the lives of born-again believers that are godless, that are secular, that are worldly. We talk often on this program about the authority of the scripture.

So often the word of God is not the authority in the lives of individual Christians. We need to get back to the word of God. Now, what is that going to take? It’s going to take, #1, preachers making sure that their pulpits are on fire with the truth of the word of God. Secondly, it’s going to take making certain that every one of us allow the word of God to work effectively in our lives.

Thirdly, it’s going to mean we must be willing to repent of those things that have taken us away from biblical truth and get back to understanding who God is, what God expects, and how God operates. And I know that may seem like a simple formula, but that will be a formula that will bring us back to revival where God’s people get right with God.

It could very well be that God is judging America through Islam. We’ve often said too that he’s judging America through the rise of homosexuality. He could be judging America through abortion. Listen, it’s all around us. God’s judgment is there. It’s time for the Church of Jesus Christ to wake up.

Dave Kistler:                 Tom, before we exit the program, and we have just about a minute before we’re going to have to leave the air, but I want you to just give our listeners the information they need as to where they can go to find out more about Fortress of Faith as well as this new venture in which you are involved, and that’s called Missions to Muslims. Talk about that, if you would, very quickly.

Tom Wallace:               Our radio broadcast site is We just launched an app just for Android phones. Just right now we are trying to get into the iPhone market, and so people can listen to our daily 15-minute program. I cover the issues that’s going on. And basically what I’m trying to do alert people and show you why God is raising up Islam as an instrument of judgment and how we need to repent, and how we need to resist Islam. Yeah, there’s a political side. Don’t just stand there and weep over it. Do your bid to try to fight it. But the biggest thing we need to do is fall to our knees, folks. We need to repent. Then we need to rescue Muslims, and that’s

3-29-18: The Hidden Meaning of the Passover: What Every Christian Should Know

Sam Rohrer:                 Well today is Good Friday. In just two more days we’re going to celebrate Easter Sunday. Did you know that the actual days that Jesus was crucified and rose from the grave were actually earlier this week? That’s right. According to the Jewish calendar Christ has already risen and it’s tied directly to the observance of the Jewish Passover. The question is should Christians, therefore, know about the Passover? And since the Jewish Passover historically preceded Easter, what should Christians know about Passover? What messages or pictures did God actually design into the Passover so Jews and Christians alike would look to and recognize the redeemer of the world.

We’re going to talk about this today on Stand in the Gap Today, and to help us better understand the richness, really, truly, the richness of the Passover, and what God wants us to know about Himself because of it, with purpose that we as Christians can learn from it and better help to share the gospel with not only gentiles but particularly our Jewish friends. We’re going to invite in a special guest today to Stand in the Gap Today our messianic Jewish evangelist, JB Bernstein, founder of Gates of Zion. First, let me welcome each of you to Stand in the Gap Today this Good Friday. I’m Sam Rohrer, and I’m going to be joined today by Pastor Isaac Crocket. Isaac, thank you for being on the program with me today on this Good Friday. I know that you’re busy at your church. So thanks for being on board here with me.

Isaac Crockett:             Thank for having me, Sam.

Sam Rohrer:                 With that, Isaac, I’m going to welcome in official now, JB Bernstein. JB, good to have you with us today.

JB Bernstein:                Hi Sam. Hi Isaac. Glad to be with you guys.

Sam Rohrer:                 I tell ya, ladies and gentlemen, you don’t know this, but JB is actually calling in from Friday and just literally, literally moments before we went on the air someone ran into the back of his vehicle. He’s in his car. He’s going to be able to talk to us, but we just prayed and thanked the Lord for protection for him. Sometimes the devil works against things, ladies and gentlemen. I want you to know that. So I think today’s going to be a special day even though the devil tried to stop this effort here. JB, I want you to start right out. Take just a couple of minutes please. Tell us about your message as a messianic Jewish evangelist. You have started an entity called the Gates of Zion, but I specifically want you just to answer here briefly whom do you primarily share the good news of Jesus Christ with? Are you an evangelist in primarily gentiles or Jewish people or both? Just tell us a little bit about your mission as a messianic evangelist.

JB Bernstein:                My call from God is to bring the truth of the messiah back to the very people He first came to, and from whom salvation comes. As the Lord said, salvation is from the Jews. Many Christians don’t realize that only less than 1% of Jewish people actually know the Lord, and these were the very people who He first came to, and part of what God has called me to do is to bring this message to Jewish people so they see that the gospel is a Jewish message to the Jewish people about the Jewish messiah and also to help Christians understand that they are called by God to bring the message that came to them from the Jewish people back to the Jewish people.

One of the places where I minister in Norway, they call it Return to Sender. It’s a very crucial thing, and it’s very much part of God’s heart who to this day is broken over His own people. He prayed over only one city recorded in the scripture, Jerusalem, and I believe He continues to pray and weeps also over that city. He wept over that city back then, and I’m convinced He’s weeping over that city now and he wants to equip and release His people throughout the body to bring that message of light back to the people from whom it first came.

Sam Rohrer:                 JB, this is a great setup. The theme I’m entitling this program here today is The Hidden Meaning of Passover: What Every Christian Should Know. And that’s what we’re going to go into. Let’s go immediately right now to the focus of this program today, Passover week. Now today is Good Friday. Easter’s just in a couple of days. These are some of the most important days in the Christian and Jewish calendar, JB, but most people, I think anyways, don’t know the rich meaning and the connection between Passover and Easter. Since Passover was begun a long time before Easter, but it’s directly connected to it. Give us a bit of history about the Passover. When did it begin? Why is it so important to the Jewish people and the nation of Israel?

JB Bernstein:                Well, understand this. When Jesus, who we call by His original Hebrew name, Yeshua, when He was here in the land of Israel in the first century during his whole life He celebrated Passover. He never heard of Easter. There was no such thing. During Passover, Passover might be the most ancient celebration perhaps in all history. Passover has been celebrated for over 3,000 years. Every single year, year after year, Jewish families have come together on the exact same time, which is on the evening of the 14th day of the first month of the year. So you see we are actually in the first month of the biblical calendar, which today is called the month of Nissan and on the 14th day, which is the middle of the month the moon is full.

So on Monday when Jews all over the world celebrated Passover, the moon was full, and that is when the Passover was celebrated. Now, the very first Passover and every subsequent Passover is all about the lamb who is slain before the foundation of the world and that is why when Yeshua, when Jesus celebrated and observed Passover He read about the hidden meaning of it to His disciples. Again, Jewish people who believe in Him we celebrate Passover, which again was on Monday on the full moon and that is the day that the Passover lamb was sacrificed and he was sacrificed.

Sam Rohrer:                 JB, tremendous, tremendous. Ladies and gentlemen, we are focusing today, because it’s Good Friday on the meaning of Good Friday and looking at the Passover. Our general theme, The Hidden Meaning of Passover: What Every Christian Should Know. Our special guest, JB Bernstein is a messianic Jewish evangelist and founder of The Gates of Zion. When we come back right after this break Isaac Crockett and I will continue with our special guest, JB, How the Passover Seder meal revealed the Redeemer.

Welcome back ladies and gentlemen to this Good Friday special program here on Stand in the Gap Today. With me today is Pastor Isaac Crockett and our special guest, JB Bernstein. He’s a messianic Jewish evangelist and founder of The Gates of Zion where you can go there to that website, and see what he has there. Our theme today is The Hidden Meaning of Passover: What Every Christian Should Know. We had a little bit of a history in the last segment. In this next segment here today we’re going to talk about the Seder meal. JB, you have conducted many Seder meals. I was privileged to be a part of one that you led a couple of years ago, and I can tell you I was really blessed by that as we sat there on the ground in that building and you led through that entire process.

I’d like in this segment here if we could to go about explaining to our listeners what the Seder meal is all about, why it’s conducted, what it means to the Jews and to Christians alike. So let me start right off with this very short question to you first and then Isaac will come back and for you. In brief terms, what is the Seder meal, when is it observed, and why is it before we get into the meaning of it. So what is the Seder meal, when’s it observed, and why?

JB Bernstein:                The Seder meal is the first of what are called the Moadim in Hebrew, the appointed times. So the first day, the 14th of Nissan which was last Monday is the Passover and then the next day is the feast of unleavened bread. The Seder meal is a meal that we remember what happened on the last plague that God sent to compel Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go or in bondage for 400 years. He had sent 10 plagues and Pharaoh’s heart was hardened after each one. Each of the plagues are intricately also judgments against the god’s of Egypt. For example, the Egyptians worshiped the sun god and so God sent the plague of darkness as an example.

The last plague, which was the most terrible is Pharaoh was considered god and so his son was also considered god and so the last plague was the terrible plague of the death of the firstborn, but what Israel was commanded to do was take a lamb without spot or blemish, a male, and to slaughter that lamb and the blood would be put in a basin and then they would take the blood and apply it to the door post and the top of the door post called the lentil of the door and when that final plague was unleashed the blood would cause death to pass over the home that had the blood applied.

You see, the reason why Christians would be greatly enriched in this and understanding the Seder meal is because that blood is also the blood, it was the blood of the Passover lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world. So the Lord Jesus, Yeshua, He not only fulfilled the Passover, but He is the Passover, and by His blood we, death passes over us today. Actually, in John 5:24 it says, “He who hears my word and believes in Him who sent Me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment. The judgment of death does not fall upon him, but he passes over from death to life. And so understanding the Seder meal and all of the details of it is a blueprint. Hidden in it is a design in the sense just like the creation, there is an intelligent design that is shouting out that the Messiah has come, He is the Passover, He has died, He has been raised from the dead and it’s all in the Passover. I could go on and on. As you can see, I’m excited about talking about it because it is pure revelation from heaven.

Isaac Crockett:             JB, this is exciting hearing about this and to see this in enrichment as we see the context unfolded for us especially a lot of us as Christians oftentimes don’t either understand or maybe don’t even study the old testament as we should. As we see this observance of the Passover, the Seder, we see the richness of this illustration that God has enriched us by giving this to us as well as other feasts in the old testament. These are pictures that show us God’s plan for Israel. It’s already, as you said, revealing His plan of redemption through Yeshua. Could you just explain, then, some of these major elements of the Seder meal then kind of walk us through how these elements point us to God’s plan of redemption.

JB Bernstein:                Even before Passover we’re commanded to remove all leaven. Everything that has yeast from the house. That’s really where we get spring cleaning from. Getting rid of the leaven and the typology of leaven is leaven is figurative for sin. So we get rid of all sin, all known offenses against God. We put it away. Get rid of all malice, all anger, evil conduct, get it out of you. So we remove leaven, the physical leaven, but it speaks of removing sin out of our lives and repenting and getting rid of it. So that begins the Passover Seder and then Matzah itself unleavened bread, if you look at it closely it is striped, it is pierced, and it is reminiscent of the Messiah Himself who was pierced. “They pierced my hands and my feet.” In Zechariah it says, “When he returns,” it says, “They will look upon him who they have pierced.” So the Messiah is the pierced one. He is the unleavened bread. “Unleavened” meaning, He had no sin. So this is the feast of unleavened bread and Yeshua himself said, “I am the bread of life.”

This is the kind of bread He was talking about. He was talking about unleavened bread. When you are able to participate and experience Passover, you see this more clearly. Also an incredible thing is that Jewish people throughout the world, there is something called a Matzatash, which has three pieces of Matzah in it. Three slices of unleavened bread and it is a tradition to take the middle piece, break it in half, wrap it in a cloth and then bury it during the Seder meal. It’s amazing. Jewish people do this throughout the whole world for centuries, have no idea why they’re doing it, and so it gets buried at the end of meal. The children look for it, search for it, and it gets taken up away and then it is shared by all.

That is called the Afikoman. It’s the only Greek term in the Passover Seder and interestingly it’s meaning is it’s “what comes after” or “He who comes.” When Yeshua, when Jesus took that bread he said, “This is my body broken for you. Eat of it.” So the Afikoman, the piece of Matzah that is wrapped in a sense, in linen, in cloth, buried, it’s raised up at the end and divided among the family speaks so clearly of the body of Messiah, and that’s just one of the elements during the Seder meal.

Sam Rohrer:                 JB, I’m listening and I’m overwhelmed because I can see the picture. Jewish people, as you say, have been doing this for thousands of years, 3,000 years.

JB Bernstein:                3,000. Yeah. Over 3,500 years. Yes.

Sam Rohrer:                 What is a Jewish person looking for? The way you describe it, it is so clear of the picture of the Messiah who has come. Why isn’t that connection made in more people’s lives and their understanding?

JB Bernstein:                I think it’s multi-faceted. I think one of the reasons has to do with a great need for the body of Christ to repent over the centuries, even almost 2,000 years of a really anti-Semitic spirit, attitude in the church where the Jews … You see, the gospel, this is very in for it. The gospel to Jewish people for the last 2,000 years-

Sam Rohrer:                 JB, JB. Hold that right now. We’re going go right into that in the next segment. Ladies and gentlemen, you’re listening to a special Good Friday emphasis here on Stand in the Gap Today, The Hidden Meaning of Passover: What Every Christian Should Know, our special guest, JB Bernstein, messianic Jewish evangelist as Isaac Crockett and I are walking through the meaning of Passover. Just as JB was heading that way, right there we’re going to come back after the break and we’re going to talk about how understanding the Passover should better motivate Christians how to witness to Jewish people.

We’re going to go forward now here. JB Bernstein, you were talking just before the break. You were talking about the meaning of the Seder and how it really should motivate us as Christians, and I want to go into this matter here now with you. Jewish families observe this wonderful tradition. They look towards the Messiah, and I was asking you the question of why is it that more don’t really understand that the Messiah has come. They’re still anticipating that Jesus, the Messiah will come. Now, I know that you have a real love for your Jewish people and so do I. I know Isaac does too and actually has some of his family in the past have had ministries to Jewish people. We know that that’s an important thing, and we rejoice in the fact that because Christ came that we, speaking of me and Isaac as well, as Gentiles have now become a part of the spiritual commonwealth of Israel.

We’re joint heirs with Jesus Christ a phenomenal, phenomenal thing. I think sometimes we too often take that for granted. Let me start out with you right now. Could you share with our Christian listeners, primarily on this program how that better understanding the Passover of the Seder meal you just walked through and this time of year in particular should help us be more effective in our witnessing to our Jewish friends. Kind of lay it down. You were going down that road of priority of the message of the gospel to Jewish people. Build that out a little bit if you could.

JB Bernstein:                What I was saying, brothers, mostly the gospel to Jewish people for the last 2,000 years has tragically been, “Be baptized or we will kill you.” It’s almost like this. When Jewish people read Moses, the Word of God says that a veil lies over their minds. Well, my discovery ever since my eyes were opened about 40 years ago is that when Christians, most Christians, not all, read Paul there’s a similar veil that lies over their minds because they don’t really see that Jesus lived his entire life in the land of Israel, and all of His apostles were Jewish, and all of His disciples were Jewish, and that they celebrated Passover. They never knew about Easter. They celebrated the feast of dedication or Hanukah, not His birthday.

They celebrated all of the feasts of the Lord. They met at the temple. They went into the synagogues on Saturday, on the Sabbath. And so what was a Jewish culture has changed to what today is a foreign culture to Jewish people, and so in a sense Jesus, Yeshua, the Messiah, has become a foreigner. Even the biblical account when we read the gospel we see that the people flocked to Him. The leaders of the Pharisees were very careful what they did with Him because they feared the people. Well, it wasn’t that they feared Indians or Chinese people, they were fearing the people of Israel, because the people of Israel were thrilled. He was famous in Israel. I believe God has called me and you to make Him famous in Israel once again.

By Christians understanding things like the Passover and being able to explain to Jewish people that, “Hey, I have become part of the covenant that God made with your people. I love and I serve your God. I worship your God. I read your book.” You see, the Jewish people have never heard that. They have been told, “You need to convert to our religion. You need to become one of us when that is not biblical. Because Christians, just like you mentioned, become part of the commonwealth of Israel. They are grafted onto the olive tree, which is their tree. The Jewish people are the natural branches. Those who were not born Jewish are wild branches grafted onto a cultivated olive tree. The Passover is such a striking example of the riches of that olive tree that are not really … Christians are not being nourished by it because they’ve bypassed it and yet, as you can see it’s so rich.

Isaac Crockett:             That gives some great perspective, JB. It helps us really understanding this context around it, and you’ve really helped this emphasize this theme that Sam started out with about the hidden meaning of Passover. It’s interesting that it’s oftentimes hidden to us as Christians, but like you said, even the understanding of Paul and his explanations in the New Testament is hidden oftentimes to the Jewish people, that they don’t realize that Jesus did come and fulfill this. Of course, on your website, Gates of Zion, there’s so many good tips and helpful things, but as a gentile believer who, as you said, were part of this commonwealth through Christ, do we need to be afraid to try to witness to Jewish people? Are we less effective because we’re not Jewish when we’re witnessing to our Jewish friends?

JB Bernstein:                It’s quite the opposite. Most Jewish people have come to faith through the witness of a gentile who’s made a decision to love Jewish people by blessing them and what is the greatest blessing that you can give to a Jewish person? Salvation. So, no. It’s the opposite of that. Gentiles, those who were not born Jewish need to understand and learn and the Apostle Paul said it clearly, “To the Jew I became as a Jew.” So to understand how to communicate to a Jewish person, that’s what my website is designed for. It used to be about my ministry.

Instead, now, it is an equipping portal designed to help Christians understand how to speak to Jewish people in their own language, through their own culture that it is their messiah who has come, and that it’s impossible that Jesus, that Yeshua, is not the Messiah and anyone that desires truth amongst the Jewish people can see that if they are gently drawn to consider these things and recognize that they don’t need to convert. In fact, the Jewish people are the only people group that do not need to convert to another religion. They need to get back to where they once belonged, as the Beatles once sang.

Isaac Crockett:             That is so helpful. Like I said earlier, it gives a different perspective that many of us aren’t really looking for, but we see this now as you explain it, that it gives an option, an impact to have with our unsaved loved ones, maybe our Jewish and the really, like you said, they don’t have to convert because that’s what Jesus, He came as Jewish. My grandfather, he just recently moved in with my aunt and uncle, but for the last 10 years he lived in a retirement community that was run by Jewish people, it’s for Jewish people. He is a survivor of the Holocaust, was part of the Dutch underground, and he came to know the Lord, but also came to have a great respect for Jewish people during his time in the Dutch underground.

It has been neat to see what you’re talking about. I found myself talking to Jewish people that there is, I think, in me an innate fear that, “Oh no. I’m an outsider. I’m a foreigner,” but to remember that Jesus Christ came and He fulfilled the law. Are there any points that we should take? Any, maybe, scripture passages that would be good for us in remembering when we’re talking to a Jewish person?

JB Bernstein:                On my website, I have an ebook that I wrote. It’s for free. Going on, you just need to give your email address and your name and it is sent to you by email, a link so you can have it for free. It’s called Five Steps to Provoke Jewish People to Jealousy. Yes, there is a way to really make Jewish people jealous because really as Christians have the inheritance of Israel. I teach in the little ebook I say, “When you approach a Jewish person, what you’re saying to them is, “I love, I worship, I serve your God. I am part of the covenant God made with your people.” And thanking them for the bible also speaks volumes.

Sam Rohrer:                 JB Bernstein, tremendous, tremendous information. I tell you, my heart is really touched. I have had a love for Jewish people for a long time, and I will tell you, understanding these things that you are saying makes it so very, very, very, very rich. I hope ladies and gentlemen that you are enjoying the program today. When we come back after the next segment we’re going to go and wrap this up and I’m going to ask the question, if there were no Jewish people, think about it, we’d have no resurrection. Think about that. We’re going to talk about what we should walk away from really understanding.

As we wrap up today’s program here on this Good Friday edition of Stand in the Gap Today, we’ve been blessed to have our special guest, JB Bernstein. He is a messianic evangelist, and also the founder of the Gates of Zion, which you can go to. A lot of good information three. is where you can find that. JB, as we wrap up the program, I have to say it again, it’s been a real blessing to have you on. The insights that I learned from Jewish people about what the bible says and particularly those who have come to faith in Yeshua is just an amazing thing. It’s rich, rich, rich.

If I could ask you, though, JB as we wrap this thing up here today, if there is one vital connection between the Passover, which the world is gonna be observing in just a day or two, what would be that one most important connection do you think that Christian people would remember about Passover as we are about now to celebrate Easter?

JB Bernstein:                I just wanted to say one thing. On the Passover plate, which has the matza, one of the things is a bone. The bone reminds us of the Passover and the amazing thing is that when the Passover lamb was eaten you can read in Exodus that they were to eat it in haste. They were to eat to consume the whole and not to break a bone. How interesting was it when the Lord was crucified that the soldiers went over to the first and there were two thieves that were crucified with him, they broke the bones of the first, but when they went to the messiah, they saw he was already dead and they did not break any of his bones and this fulfilled the Word of God, “Not a bone should be broken of the Passover lamb.”

So here is death of the Messiah including the way He died and even the actual event where His bones were not broken relating right to the Passover lamb that was slaughtered right before Israel left Egypt before the plague of the death of the firstborn. That, to me, it just shows the intricate design of God in this feast to bear witness and the prophetic clarity of what it was speaking about so much so that when the Lord appeared, the prophet who ( actually there was an actual empty chair for Elijah at the Passover Seder because Elijah is tied up with the coming of the Messiah) was Elijah and Yeshua said John or Elijah who is to come and he announces him, his first words when he saw Yeshua is “Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” Isn’t that absolutely amazing?

Sam Rohrer:                 Oh it is. It is. It is. Isaac.

Isaac Crockett:             Yes. It’s so amazing to hear how you describe this as Christians looking at this we see all of this coming into fruition. We see all the connections just as you’ve explained it through Passover, and it’s so wonderful to have knowledge. As we look at this Passover feast and we realize that understanding it, having the context of it makes a powerful impact on what we do as Christians on our belief and our understanding of Jesus, what He came to fulfill. We remember that the Passover is not the only feast that is celebrated. And there are many feasts on the Jewish calendar. Would you maybe take a little bit of time to tell us some of the things that are coming up next on the calendar and what we should, as believers in Jesus Christ be looking forward to with those.

JB Bernstein:                Amazingly, yesterday, Wednesday was first fruits. In other words, the Lord rose on the third day, yesterday was the third day and that is the feast called  first fruits, of course He is the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. So He rose from the dead on first fruits and now 50 days from the Sabbath following Passover, Christians know it as Pentecost and that’s when the Holy Spirit fell. So you see everything about the light of Jesus, of the Messiah, has to do with one of the feasts of the Lord. So the Lord is crucified on Passover, He is raised from the death on the Feast of first fruits. The Holy Spirit falls on Pentecost and then the next feast prophetically that has not taken place yet is the feast of trumpets.

And we know that the Lord will descend with the blast of the trumpet. So on the prophetic calendar all of the feasts of the Lord is fulfilled in Him. And so we’re waiting now. One of these feasts of trumpets, the day of the blowing of the trumpet of, not only of the trumpets, of the shout. And it says the Lord will descend with a shout. As I talk about this, it just excites me because it is so prophetic and it’s all about Him and He said, “My words are spirit and light,” and all of these feasts are the Word of God and He is the Word of God so He is all the feasts. So you can just go deeper and deeper with these realities.

Sam Rohrer:                 JB, I’ll tell you, my eyes tear. I’m thrilled to my heart by this. We’re going to have to close the program now. And you’re right. We could go much further. But I would like for you to pray here in the last remaining 45 seconds or whatever. Pray for the people of Israel. Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. Pray for God’s people to have a greater burden for his people and for those who are not yet saved. Could you do that please for us?

JB Bernstein:                …In the Father of the name of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob we ask you to open the eyes of Israel and to open the eyes of your church, of Christians, so that they begin to fulfill what you spoke about in Romans 11:11 and in fact that evangelism takes on the pattern that Paul said that, “I’m not ashamed of this gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, but to the Jew first.” Lord, restore that pattern. Fulfill Romans 11:11 and cause Christians to start making Jewish people jealous and Lord we ask you to open the eyes of Israel, Lord God. Give them dreams, visions. Bring them home. Bring them home into your arms in the mighty name of Yeshua, Jesus the Kind of Glory. Amen and Amen.

Sam Rohrer:                 Amen and amen. Ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for being with us on this special Good Friday program, the Passover and what it means. I pray that as each of you go forward now to the balance of this day and into Easter weekend remember the Passover. Yeshua has come. The next point is He’s going to come back with the shout of the trumpet. Be ready for that.

APN Partners with Biblically Responsible Investing to Focus on Christian Stewardship

The American Pastors Network radio program, Stand in the Gap Today, will feature guest William J. Parker, founder of Biblically Responsible Investing most Friday’s to discuss Christian stewardship. The name of this program is Money Mission Friday and can be heard from 12-1pm EST.  To listen LIVE click here.

We view the concept of Biblically Responsible Investing (BRI) as investing that seeks to please and glorify God as a vital act of worship. In an effort to worship God through the investment selection, BRI is an investment decision making process that applies Christian values to issues facing shareholders and stakeholders regarding moral, environmental, social, corporate governance, and applicable Biblical principles. This coupled with traditional financial analysis provides a platform for investment decisions that allows us to view our role as stewards of God’s gifts to us and also respect the foundational beliefs of our shared Christian faith. There are a variety of terms used by investors and funds that describe this same concept. Among them are: Faith Based Investing, Values Investing, Christian Values Investing, Morally Responsible Investing, Stewardship Investing, and many others. (

William Parker

William J. Parker is the Chief Executive Officer of GrandView Asset Management, a firm which offers fee based money management headquartered in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. The firm has been family run since 1962. William is also the Chief Executive Officer of GrandView 401k Advisors. Grandview 401k Advisors is an independent consulting firm that creates qualified and nonqualified retirement programs. GrandView 401k Advisors sets itself apart by educating the business owners as well as the employees so they may retire successfully.

With over three decades of experience, William Parker understands the gamut of investments, markets, and services that are available to help individuals, families, and businesses plan for their financial needs. He understands the various vehicles, both qualified and non-qualified, available to help businesses structure benefit plans in order to retain current employees as well as attract and recruit new employees.

William served as the Mayor of Paxtang from 2000 to 2004. William is the host of an investment radio program on WHP-580 every Saturday morning from 6 to 7 am. William expanded to Clear Channels stations in both Harrisburg and the Lancaster market place in March of 2011.

He is the father of five children, three of whom are living with Fragile X and Autism. William Parker primarily concentrates his philanthropic efforts on children with disabilities. Demonstrating his commitment to give back, he has served on several national and regional boards including the MIND Institute at UC Davis (California) and The National Fragile X Foundation, and founded the Center for Autism and Developmental Disabilities at Philhaven. William also serves on the National Autism Society Board. In addition, he also advances the cause by working with officials at both the state and federal levels to increase funding for research and services on behalf of individuals with special needs.

William Parker and his wife, Deborah, reside in Palmyra, Pennsylvania with their children.

1-30-18: Rebuilding the Spiritual Infrastructure of our Inner Cities

Isaac Crockett: 

Well thank you so much for tuning into our program today. We are joined by Dr. Gary Dull, the executive director of our Pennsylvania Pastors Network. He’s the senior pastor of the Faith Baptist Church in Altoona, Pennsylvania. We have evangelist Dave Kistler, the president of the North Carolina Pastors Network, and founder and president of Hope to the Hill Ministries. I’m Pastor Isaac Crockett, senior pastor at Hamburg Bible Church in Hamburg, Pennsylvania. We also have a returning special guest with us today, Pastor Matt Recker, senior pastor of Heritage Baptist Church in Manhattan.

So, thank you so much for tuning in. We’re looking forward to talking with our special guests today. But tonight I just wanted to bring up, there’s a speech going to be coming up tonight. The President is going to be giving, actually, his first State of the Union address. I would just kind of like to know what you guys, as pastors and evangelists, think about the state of our country under the leadership of President Donald Trump.

So, Gary, this speech usually will focus a good bit on the strengths of our military and our economic position. I know that you have family members and close friends in our military. I thought I would ask you first what you think of the state of our union right now as it goes to our military and the job performance of our president in leading our military, maybe compared to the job performance of our former president, President Barack Obama.

Gary Dull:   

Really? Compared to President Barack Obama? Well, let me put it this way, Isaac. I would say that the state of the union is strong, as I see it. From the economic perspective and from the international perspective. I know that perhaps not everybody would agree with that, that may be listening to us here today. But you asked particularly as it relates to the military. You know, Isaac, under Barack Obama’s administration, our military was weakened. It was cut down, whether you are talking about our ships at sea, our airplanes, whatever the case may be. Things had been reduced, even to the point that some of the ships and some of the airplanes that we have right now can’t even float, can’t even fly, can’t even perform their duties, because they’ve just been allowed to run down. There has been a low morale amongst those who are a part of the military.

You know, I have a son who is a Major in the Army. He’s in Special Ops. He’s a Ranger. He has told me that since Donald Trump is in the White House, that the sense of morale, the sense of strength, the sense of encouragement is coming back into the military, into the Army that he joined back in 2001. I think that what we will see tonight is Donald Trump saying that the military is strong, and it’s getting stronger, and I would agree with that 100%.

Isaac Crockett:  

All right, wow. That’s a good inside look coming from your position there, and with your son. Dave, you travel all over the country, and so you see things that some of us maybe don’t see. The news is saying stock markets are at a record high, unemployment is at almost record lows. Do you see this as you travel around? Then also, when we look at the seemingly good economy, is that a credit to President Trump? Or some in the media are claiming it’s really the lingering effects that President Obama had on the economy. I guess my question for you is do you see things getting better, and do you think that if Hillary Clinton would have been elected that we would have as strong and as robust of an economy?

Dave Kistler:

Isaac, let me say this. I just left Miami, Florida, a few weeks back. I was in a very affluent area of Miami, ministering in a church there and had a chance to interact with a lot of people from that area and that economy, South Florida. It is absolutely incredible what is taking place economically. All of this is based on policy that the president has implemented. It has really nothing to do as far as lingering effects from the prior president. It has everything to do with what this president has done with deregulation. You remember he said for every one new regulation we put in place, we’re going to eliminate at least two. Some people are saying it’s closer to 20 regulations are being eliminated for every new regulation put in place. The market loves that. It is thriving on that.

We’ve had 80 some record highs on the stock market. Now right now, today, stock market’s down about 300 points. That’ll probably be temporary because of sell-off of stock in the healthcare market, or the healthcare sector. But everything that’s going on right now that I’m seeing, whether it’s Florida, whether it’s North Carolina, up into Virginia, D.C. area, it is absolutely amazing what is taking place economically. Remember guys, the effects of the tax bill do not actually go into effect until February. Here we are, guys, on the front end of it; it’s all anticipation of what’s to come. No, Isaac. It’s all the effects of what this president’s doing, and it’s really amazing to watch.

Isaac Crockett: 

Wow. More important than our economic health is the spiritual health of our nation. I want to go to our special guest. We’ll say more about him next segment, but today we have with us a New Yorker. Born and raised in New York City, in the New York City area. A pastor there for over three decades now. Very familiar, I’m sure, with the name and personality of our president, Donald Trump. Pastor Matt Recker, thank you for being on with us today. Let me ask you this quick question, then. I don’t think any of us imagined that Donald Trump would be a president that would appoint so many Christians and conservatives into such high positions, and people who follow the constitution. What is your reaction as a pastor in New York City? You’ve seen Donald Trump pretty much all your life as a celebrity. What is your reaction to seeing how he’s leading our nation? Especially spiritually?

Matt Recker:

Wow. Well, that’s an incredible question to think of President Trump leading our nation spiritually. You know? When we consider his history. As our president now, I see him … As he even spoke last week as a cheerleader for our country, and not an apologizer for our culture. That is so refreshing to me. Overall, I believe that it is shocking, in the best sort of way, to see our president, Trump, now, perhaps arguably, as the most pro-life and pro-Israel president-

Isaac Crockett:


Matt Recker:  

Perhaps that we’ve ever even had.

Isaac Crockett:  


Matt Recker: 

Now, if you had told me that 20 years ago, I would have thought you were absolutely crazy. I was not a Donald Trump person. I’ve never even saw one of his shows, so I would never have supported Donald Trump. I never saw that fired show that he did. I never saw it. I didn’t really follow him. I just saw that he would make the news, with all of his, you know, often his adulteries, and divorces, and remarriages, and stuff. Who would have thought this? I think it’s shocking, in the best sort of way, that now he has become the first United States president to address an anti-abortion march. Sarah Sanders, the White House secretary, said that the president is committed to protecting the life of the unborn. He’s excited to be part of this historic event. That’s incredible to me. I think it’s shocking how the liberal left is truly afraid of President Trump, and are constantly attacking him. Even yesterday, the New York Times ran two editorials on the threat of Donald Trump to abortion rights. One of them entitled “The White House Puts the Bible Before the Hippocratic Oath”. That’s incredible.

Isaac Crockett: 


Matt Recker: 

And incredibly shocking, in a great way.

Isaac Crockett: 

Wow. That is exciting. When we come back, we’ll be speaking more with our special guest, Matt Recker, the author of “Behold the City”. We want to come back and talk about sometimes having to confront our culture with the truth, how we do it, why it’s necessary, by hearing some stories from Matt’s ministry. You really don’t want to miss out on any of this information we have coming right up after this break.

Welcome back to the program. As we do on this program and Stand in the Gap, we talk about issues that we are facing in our country in regards to our culture, and dealing with a culture that, for the most part, does not want the truth of God’s word. It seems to be that this is especially the case in many of our urban centers, our big cities. We’ve discussed, this month in particular, we’ve been looking at the issues of human trafficking, of the persecuted church, and of abortion. Right here on Stand in the Gap today. When it comes to abortion especially, New York City, unfortunately, has one of the highest rates in the world. I want to go back to our special guest now, and ask Pastor Matt Recker from Heritage Baptist Church. He’s a returning guest. I think this is your first time on with us this year, though, Matt. So, thank you so much. I want to welcome you to our program. Thanks for making time to be with us today.

Matt Recker: 

Joy to be with you.

Isaac Crockett:

But, Matt, could you maybe tell me a little information, or tell our listeners, a little bit about some of the high abortion rates that are in the city where you live and where you minister in?

Matt Recker:

Sure, Isaac. Again, thank you for having me. It’s great to be on with you in Stand in the Gap. Congratulations for the success and growth of the outreach of this program; may God continue to bring you His blessing, and continue to influence. Yeah, New York City has the highest abortion rates in the United States. When we talk about abortion, I know we can give a lot of statistics, and they kind of fly right by us. But, I want to give two statistics; hopefully make them a little memorable. The one is 60%. Just remember 60%. That is, 60% of New York City’s birthrate is abortions. That is … So, the numbers are, there were like 70,000 abortions, and 117,000 births. The city’s abortion rate is 60% of it’s birth rate. Which is astronomical. The ratio of that is, like, 600 abortions for every 1,000 live births. Another statistic that I have come across in recent years that is just so astounding about abortion …

This is general, not about New York. Just remember these numbers. 60 million. There have been about 60 million abortions since 1973. In contrast to that, there have been about 1.3 million died in all the wars of American history. Compare those numbers. 58 million to 1.3 and a half million. 58 million abortions. 1.35 million have died in all the wars of American history. The great war in this country has been against babies in the womb. Totally defenseless children. Another thing that’s very tragic about the New York City abortion situation is that more black babies have been aborted in New York City than born in New York City. The real war against black lives is the babies in the womb. In spite of this, sadly, Mayor De Blasio is a proud partner of Planned Parenthood, which is really just an abortion clinic. Abortion is a terrible, terrible tragedy. It should break our hearts as Christians, and I know it breaks the hearts of many. I really see that abortion is nothing more than Old Testament Baal worship, which had child sacrifice. Now modern-day abortion has dressed up Old Testament Baal worship and child sacrifice, and renamed it pro-choice. It’s a terrible, terrible time against God.

Gary Dull:

You know, Matt, it’s a delight to have you with us. Of course, I could remember a number of years ago on live television that I debated the director of Planned Parenthood. I said something like this at one point. That when a lady wants to have an abortion, she doesn’t think of the fact that there is life in that womb before birth. This particular lady came right back at me and said, “Yes, that is correct.” So, my response was, “Well then, every woman that has an abortion is quite selfish. Correct?” Well, she really didn’t know how to answer that question. I remember her face turning red. It’s just a sad thing to consider. You know, a few months ago, back in October of 2017, a well-known pastor in New York City was on a television program called The View. I think most of us are aware of that particular program. He was asked by cohost Joy Behar if he believed abortion was wrong. In his answer, he did not condemn abortion. In fact, his answer sounded like someone who was pro-choice when he said, and I quote, “People have to live their own convictions.” End quote. Now, since then, he has clarified that he does believe that abortion is sinful. Unfortunately, Matt, I’ve heard a lot of pastors take a politically correct attitude towards abortion along the lines of this particular pastor we’re talking about. I think that that’s very sad. But, Matt, do you ever preach against abortion in a city where you know many of the people you’re trying to evangelize are probably pro-choice?

Matt Recker: 

Sure. I mean, we have to preach the Bible. Abortion is murder. I only say that after carefully studying the Bible, and what the Bible says about life in the womb; that life clearly, scripturally, begins at conception. And life clearly grows in the womb. Bible characters were set apart from the womb, like Jeremiah, and Samson, John the Baptist. The baby in the womb is called a child. I did a series on our own radio program, 10 Reasons Why Abortion is Murder. I know that sounds inflammatory, but that is the Bible truth. You know, it’s another exciting thing, really, today. Not only do we clearly have the Bible on our side. That’s why we do need to stand against the sin of abortion. But, science is now clearly more than ever on our side. You know? That’s why the left is really, I think, in a tizzy over this. They’re losing this battle for the first time, really, in a long time. I mentioned recently in our church that abortion is one of the saddest illustrations of what Isaiah 5:20 said; where Isaiah wrote, “Woe to them that call evil good.”

Gary Dull:


Matt Recker: 

“And good evil. That put darkness for light, and light for darkness. Woe to them that are wise in their own eyes.” I believe the Bible’s crystal clear on these things, and abortion is a way people are calling light darkness. You mentioned a pastor in New York City. That particular pastor, he’s like Tiny Tim, tiptoeing through the tulips while children die and the family’s being destroyed.

Gary Dull:    


Matt Recker: 

His lukewarm, accommodating responses to sin, and his compromises are truly tragic. Yet, his church is growing, and filled with the stars and celebrities and things. That’s the tragedy. It’s really just … I mentioned Baal worship, earlier. That’s kind of like how Baal worship infiltrated the true worship of God, and then compromised the people of God in the land. We have to stand against it, even though it might seem popular.

Gary Dull:  


Dave Kistler: 

Matt, you and I go back all the way to our college days. We attended the same Bible college, and it’s great to have you on the program. You have written an outstanding book called “Behold the City”. Matt, I have read a portion of that book just in the last couple of days, and it is a virtual walking museum of exciting stories and illustrations of your life in New York City. There’s one particular account I want to focus on where you chased after a man who said he had a gun. He had grabbed a lady’s purse. You pursued him down one of the streets there, Flatbush Avenue there, in New York City. When the incident was over, you wrote this comment, and you’ve included it in your book. It’s an amazing statement. I want to read it; then I want to ask you a question about it.

You said in, and I quote, “As I considered my sudden display of boldness while running down Flatbush Avenue shouting at the top of my lungs, ‘Stop that thief!’, I was ashamed at my lack of daily boldness concerning the needs of a man’s soul. A lady had had her purse stolen with perhaps a few dollars in it, and I was willing to make a fool out of myself. But what about the millions of souls in New York City held captive by Satan? Am I willing to be a fool for Christ’s sake in order to reach them with the gospel?” Wow, Matt. Powerful statement. What kind of advice would you give to listeners to this program – many of whom are actually preachers – who may be afraid at this point to be a fool for Christ’s sake in order to reach someone with the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Matt Recker: 

Yeah. Well, thank you, Dave. Thank you for your kind words about my book. I do remember that incident. It was a few years ago. I was a little younger. That thief didn’t know I was a cross country runner in high school. I’m not very fast, but I have endurance.

Gary Dull:   

Good for you.

Matt Recker:       

I just kept after him. It was kind of funny, when I look back at it, anyway. Because I was running after him, and I started running after him, and other people started following me. The thief stopped when I got around the corner, too. He stopped. Then I looked behind me. I saw more people running my way. I was like, “Come on, guys. Let’s get this thief.” He did give the purse back, and that was a blessing. But, yeah, I was willing to make a fool out of myself. I ran down the street … Remember, we were getting ready for a church supper. I was basically in a tie and I had my wingtips on. I was running down the street. I didn’t have sneakers.

Gary Dull: 

You should have … That means you flew. Wingtips.

Matt Recker:

Then, it hit me. Am I willing to do that to preach the gospel to others? What I would just simply say is, we need to pray. And ask God for boldness every day. It’s never easy. When we go out and pass out tracks in the subway, week after week … Passing out that first track, and just opening my mouth up, and telling people, “Hey, Jesus loves you.” Then I start passing out tracks. Then I get a burden to tell every person in New York City, “Jesus loves you.”

Dave Kistler: 

Amen. Amen.

Matt Recker:

And offer them a gospel track. You know? That’s what I try to do. I would say, put a track in your pocket as you leave the house. Pray, and ask God to help you give it out. Maybe give it out to your dry cleaner. Maybe give it out to the person checking you out at the supermarket. We need to see souls as God sees them; as lost. As those needing the gruesome, yet the glorious death and resurrection of Christ to forgive them. Only Jesus can. We have to see them as blinded, and deceived by Satan, the god of this world.

Isaac Crockett: 

We’ve been talking with our good friend, Pastor Matt Recker. He’s grown up in the New York City area, and he’s been pastoring and planting churches in New York City for over 30 years. During that time, I’m sure you have seen, Matt, that there are a lot of churches who seem to be moving away from the inner cities, away from the big cities. Oftentimes Christians living in our cities say that there are not enough Bible believing churches there. Matt, you wrote in your book about the difficulties facing somebody who wants to reach our cities for Christ. You said, “Humanly speaking, there are many reasons one would want to avoid the city.” Could you maybe talk about that? Some of the difficulties that there could be in coming to the city, and trying to reach folks in our big cities?

Matt Recker: 

Sure. Thank you, Isaac. Well, I would say, first of all, what’s such a concern to us is raising our children. And where they’re going to go to school, and who their friends are going to be. That’s a challenge in urban ministry; just raising our families. Parking your car. When we first lived in Flatbush, Brooklyn, we had to move our car back and forth across the street with opposite side street parking laws. We couldn’t keep a car seat in our car. Every time we had to go somewhere with the kids, or something, we had to take the car seats in and out. I call them urban inconveniences. There are many things like that. The pace of the city, the traffic in the city. Just to get from one place to another; it sometimes takes two hours to go 15 minutes, you know? It can be frustrating, and irritating. The city is the devil’s playground. It is the devil’s stronghold, and there’s a spiritual battle being fought in the urban ministry. Some of these are the reasons, but the bottom line is, Bible believing Christians, we need to stop running. I almost said to one preacher one day how so many churches, when the neighborhoods change, color and culture, many churches shrink because they don’t adjust to reach the changing culture around them. When their church shrinks, they feel like, “We got to move out of this community now.” Why? There’s more, there’s people there. People for whom Christ died. So many churches have moved when it’s changed color and culture. Bible believing Christians, I think they’ll all be pooled together in Kansas. You know? Because everybody’s moved out of the city.

Dave Kistler:

Matt, I can hear in your voice a passion for New York City, and I love every bit of it. Something you said about how long it takes you just to get around the city. Obviously, because of our ministry up on Capitol Hill, we deal with some of the same things. It’s uniquely different from New York City, but the travel times are frequently the same. My son lives about 32 miles outside the city. When we’re there, we also stay in the same location. It’s about an hour and 20 minute, hour and 30 minute drive in. Because of D.C. traffic, about another hour and 30 minute drive out at the end of the day. But I love every bit of it. I absolutely love it, like you love ministry in New York City. Let me ask you a question. I know you grew up in New York. I know that’s your background. What is it about ministry to New Yorkers that, all these years later, 33 years after you planted your first ministry there, that still ignites a passion in your heart?

Matt Recker: 

Ultimately, Dave, it’s the word of God in my soul. That keeps the passion. That’s really it. It’s a passion for the people that are here in the city. Because God has much people in this city. That’s what keeps me going in the city. I think that, two, why many have avoided urban ministry in a place like New York is because of our definition of success that we have in our mind for what is a successful ministry. It’s difficult to attain in urban ministry. In other words, if I were to say, “Having a successful ministry is buying land, building a building, and growing a church after I have bought land and built it”, then I’m a failure. I’ve failed in urban ministry. Our church is 20 years old, and we’re still being kicked to the sidewalk. And having to find space here or there. As far as the passion, it still comes by the word of God, and by the Holy Spirit. Working through those times of discouragement, and seeming failure, but knowing that this is where God has called me to be.

Gary Dull: 

You know, Matt, I praise the Lord that you are there in Manhattan. I, as Dave said, I’m very familiar with Washington, D.C. I lived there for a number of years, and I pastored a number of years. During the period of time that I pastored there, a lot of churches moved out of inside Washington to the suburbs, to Virginia, to Maryland. Consequently, it created the situation that allowed even greater sinfulness to be brought into the city, because there was less Evangelism going on. It’s really a serious thing to take into consideration. I have heard in some situations, however, that some of those churches that have gone out of the city now are trying to come back into the city with their ministry. But, Matt, you wrote, and I quote your words, “Paul understood that one of the best vehicles of propagation of the gospel was the city.” Now, let’s take a look at the Apostle Paul. How is a big city like Rome that he was involved with in his day or New York City in our day a vehicle for sharing the gospel around the world, Matt?

Matt Recker: 

Yeah. Well, there is that old saying that all roads led to Rome. I believe Paul understood the power of the influence that a city has. Because since all roads lead to Rome, all roads also led from Rome. If the gospel can break into the city, then the gospel can break out of the city. That’s why I wrote that statement that Paul understood that one of the best vehicles to propagate the gospel was the city. Because the city doesn’t stand still. The city is constantly moving. In other words, people are coming into our cities right now from all around the world. Immigrants are coming. As immigrants come, people are being pushed out. We have to try to get the gospel to people, because they’re going to be moving on. They’ll be going somewhere else and then, Lord willing, bring the gospel with them. The idea of the city being a propagator of the gospel … And I really believe that Paul was a jungle rat, but an urban jungle rat. When he was on his missionary journeys, really, the second missionary journey when he got his first call to a specific place, and it was to Macedonia … Which was a general area of northern Greece, but then he went to the cheap cities of Macedonia, Philippi, Thessalonica, Berea. From there on, from that point on until the end of his life, he stayed in the city to Rome. All the way to Rome. I believe that Paul saw that the city was the opportunity to reach the world in one place. If we’re called to carry the gospel to the world, which we are, the world is in the city. That’s Paul’s urban attitude, and that should be the urban attitude we have. Not the fearful, media-created bias attitude that often plagues many of our modern minds.

Isaac Crockett: 

Oh, wow. Thank you. That’s very helpful, Matt. We just have a couple of minutes before the break on this segment. I wonder if you could maybe share with our listeners maybe some Bible passages or some biblical principles that can help us, encourage us, to go out of our way to minister to people even in cases where people look a lot different than us, or come from a different background than us.

Matt Recker: 

Yeah. As I mentioned earlier, really, my passion for the city comes first from the Bible. Then from experience. But, the Bible verses that have been most meaningful to me for urban ministry are Acts 18:10. Paul in Corinth. God telling Paul, “Be not afraid, but speak. Hold not your peace, for I have much people in this city.” That is a powerful verse that I’ve always … I feel like that’s for New York City, and that promises for me in New York City. God has been true to that verse, as well to me. Micah 6:9. Where it says, “The Lord’s voice crieth unto the city. The man of wisdom shall see thy name.” So, I believe God’s voice is crying to the city, and I want to be that voice for him in our city. Then, Jonah 4:10. God says, “Should not I spare Nineveh?” That is, God’s heart and passion is for the cities that his people want to run from. Like, Jonah was running from Nineveh. He wanted God to just destroy it. You know? But he had a burden for the city.

Isaac Crockett:  

Wow, amen. You know, in this show we talk about a biblical worldview, and looking at these issues from the Bible. It’s so clear to see God’s redemptive plan will make a difference in our neighborhoods, wherever we are; but especially when it comes to our big cities; to urban ministry. We need to see God at work, and we need Christians there willing to be the light, willing to confront darkness as children of light. Walking carefully, circumspectly; not as fools, but as wise, redeeming the time.

Welcome back, and it’s hard to believe that this is already our last segment. We’ve had our special guest with us, Pastor Matt Recker from New York City. He’s also the author of many different pamphlets, and articles, and has done radio and YouTube things on his own. He’s also written two books. “Behold the City” and “Living on the Edge of Eternity”. Both of which I would highly recommend to our listeners. As we’ve been talking with him about confronting our culture with a biblical worldview, especially looking at inner city ministry, Matt, could you just remind our listeners, just go over some of the quick biblical commands that we’ve been given to evangelize our cities with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Matt Recker:

Yes, Isaac. Can I also just, before I answer that question, I would like to share a blessing and also a prayer request for our ministry here. I mentioned earlier that our church is, we’re coming up on our 22nd year. Through these years, on Sundays, we’ve met in schools of various kinds; public schools, private schools. We’ve been kicked out of various places. We’ve fought with the, you know, there’s a whole big legal battle between the Board of Education and churches meeting in schools. Which we’re able to do, now; right now. But we don’t know for how long. We could be literally kicked out, right, today, from our Sunday morning meeting place; we just never know. Recently, we were also asked by our Midtown office location that they were not going to renew our lease. They said they don’t want to rent to churches. We had to find another office space. We were paying, at the other place, $6,555 a month. I don’t know if that’s a lot of money to you, but $6,555 is a lot for our church. It’s a small place. We couldn’t even have Sunday morning church there. That was just during the week. Anyway, we got kicked out of there. We found another place. It’s a lot smaller. It’s a little less money. Our goal has been to buy our own condominium space. We’re not trying to buy land to build a building; we’re trying to literally buy, like, a commercial condo place within a big building. That’s what we’ve been trying to do. We’d like to raise about 1.5 million dollars. We have about 700,000. Which is a lot of money, still, but not enough to really do what we want to do. The point I want to say, and I want to praise God, and I also want to ask your prayers, and your listeners to pray for God to bless us in this city, is yesterday we got the biggest gift we ever have received. Somebody gave our church $75,000 yesterday. Which was such a sign from the Lord. Our first day in this new, smaller office – which we’re hoping will be temporary, so we can get our new place – and we had our biggest gift ever. That was such a blessing, you know. Wanted to share that.

Dave Kistler:

Matt, let me jump in and ask you a quick question here. I know we’ve got just about two and a half minutes-

Matt Recker:  

Yeah, just a couple of minutes. Yeah.

Dave Kistler:

Yeah, we have just a couple of minutes. Could you very quickly just … I mean, I know there’s a long story to it, but share with us a little bit how you personally came to faith in Jesus Christ.

Matt Recker:

I was a lost drug addict, pot smoking college student at Clemson. Some wonderful people at Clemson started witnessing to me, and they led me to the Lord. That’s the bottom line. They showed me Jesus, and I realized I was a sinner. I was on my way to hell. I needed Jesus Christ to save me. I never understood, Dave, that I was a sinner. I heard that Jesus died for me, but I thought I was a good person. It wasn’t until I realized I wasn’t a good person, I was a sinner. And I was going to die and go to hell. Then I understood why Jesus died for me. Then they told me about this church in Manhattan. I started going to that church in Manhattan and God, from there, as I mentioned earlier, used verses like Acts 18:10, and Micah 6:9, and Jonah 1, verse 2. “Arise, and go to Nineveh, and commissioned passages to reach every creature, and go to all nations.” From there, God just gave me a burden for the city.

Isaac Crockett:

Amen. That burden has now taken you for over 30 years planting churches, pastoring churches, and writing this book, “Behold the City”. Which, again, I would encourage folks who are interested in this … I like some of the things you have in there. Chapters like how an ordinary person can go about doing this. It’s just neat to see how God’s hand of blessing has been upon you. I thank you for being on our show today, and for some of the reminders coming from the Bible of what we need to do; that there are much people in the city, and to be praying for boldness for all of us, that we’d be willing to go out and to find people to witness to, and to share the story of how God has worked in our lives. I’m going to go to Dr. Gary Dull, and ask, Pastor Gary, if you could wrap things up for our program today, and close our time in prayer. We just appreciate so much having this opportunity to speak to you, our listeners, today, and to talk about what God is doing in spite of the evil and the darkness in our culture; that we have been called to be children of light, and to stand up for the great one, the light of the world, Jesus Christ, our loving savior.

Gary Dull:

Matt, I want to thank you very much for being with us today, and giving us the challenge to reach all people with the gospel of Jesus Christ. You know, I often say that every time you hear of a murder, every time you hear of an abortion, every time you hear of crime, that if that person would have been reached for Christ, the chances that that crime would have taken place would be a whole lot less. Thank you, Matt Recker, for your ministry there in Manhattan at the Heritage Baptist Church. Ladies and gentlemen, I would encourage you to be praying for this very valid ministry in the heart of New York City.

1-26-18: 215 Million Reasons to Take Islam Seriously

Sam Rohrer:                

Well have you ever been maligned or made fun of perhaps? Perhaps ridiculed by a classmate or a fellow worker or maybe embarrassed by a teacher because of something that you said or because of something that you believe? Well, if you have, and my guess is most of you listening to me right now have had one or more of those things happen to you in your lifetime. But, if I were to ask you, “Have you ever been beaten, thrown into jail, or publicly humiliated at the hands of government officials because of your faith in Jesus Christ,” likely very few listening to me right now have ever experienced that. If you have, then you may have in fact suffered biblical persecution. Today around the world there’s more persecution of people because of their faith in Jesus Christ than in the entire history of the world, or so that’s what the numbers are saying.

Yet, sadly, very few people know about it. So today on this program, we’re going to focus on Christian persecution. Our general theme is going to be this: slow motion holocaust, Christian persecution around the world. And we’re going to define what it is and what it’s not. We’re going to define and show where it’s happening, who’s primarily doing it, and why. And then we’re going to conclude at the end of the program with what we can do about it.

And with that I want to welcome you to Stand in the Gap Today, I’m Sam Rohrer, host of Stand in the Gap Today and I’m going to be joined today by my co-host, Dr. Gary Dull, Senior Pastor of Faith Baptist Church of Altoona, Pennsylvania, and Gary’s also the Executive Director of the Pennsylvania Pastor’s Network. Our special and first time guest to Stand in the Gap Today will be Dave Bailey, he’s an educational consultant, he’s an author of two books. One of them is Dare to Speak: Islam vs Free Democracy and Free Enterprise, which was published in 2006, and the most recent one, 2013 book entitled Shock and Alarm: What it was really like at the U.S. Embassy in Iraq.

So as we move now into this topic today, ladies and gentleman, I’d like to define persecution first of all, in a general sense, okay? Now here’s the definition, and I pulled this from Websters 1829 dictionary, frankly where I like to go for definitions of words. They seem to be more accurate to the original. But the definition here of persecution is this: it’s the infliction of pain, punishment or death upon others, and keyword, unjustly. Particularly for adhering to a religious creed or mode of worship, either by way of penalty or by compelling them to renounce their principles. All right? So infliction of pain, punishment, death, unjustly doing so, generally because of something that they believe.

Now, Gary, you heard the definition I just gave there, it’s in a general sense, but I want to zero in on Christian persecution as we go in the program today. And I’m gonna want you to define what biblical persecution, what it is. But, before you do that, let me just read down through a couple of things of what biblical persecution is not. So, ladies and gentleman, I’m going to give you just a few things here, but this is not Christian persecution.

For instance, a personal controversy with someone. Persecution, true, Christian persecution is not someone just making fun of you. It’s not an economic downturn or being caught out of work like the Great Depression. That was not persecution. Persecution is not necessarily war. The War for Independence, the Civil War, or World Wars I and II, were not primarily persecution even though all of them were marked with extensive death and suffering. Persecution is not something you get for doing wrong, such as being sent to jail for repeatedly refusing to pay your taxes. And persecution is not God’s corrective discipline for personal disobedience or the result of biblical principle of reaping and sowing. In other words, if you just do the wrong things, and make wrong choices all the time, bad things will happen to you, that’s not persecution either.

All right, now. Gary, let me go back to you, with those kind of things out of it, what it’s not, build out if you would just a little bit, what the Bible defines as true biblical, we say, Christian persecution, read it as defined by the Bible. Could you do that please?

Gary Dull:

Well Sam, I’m glad you went down through that list of what it is not because down through the years I’ve heard people say, “I’m being persecuted for Christ,” and they don’t really know what persecution for Christ is all about. That was very excellent that you elaborated upon that. You know the Bible tells us that persecution is something that we can expect in Second Timothy 3 in verse 12 it says, “Yea, and all that live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” And over in First Peter, chapter 2 in verse 21 it tells us that persecution is something that we are called unto. In fact, I would encourage every one of you who are listeners today to read through First Peter, because First Peter has a lot to say about persecution.

But biblical persecution, or persecution for Christ, is action that is designed to intimidate, physically harm, or kill people because of Christ. And the key component there is because of Jesus Christ. In other words, persecution is a result of doing what Christ commands us to do and living as Christ commands us to live. It’s the result of refusing to bow down to the God of government or culture and it’s the result of refusing to renounce the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is the name above all names. And I’ve often said to my congregation, Sam, if somebody would walk up to you with a 12-gauge shotgun and say, “Denounce Christ or die,” what would you do? And of course, you know, if you did not denounce Christ and get shot, obviously, that’s persecution.

But this is real. And there are many nations of the world where persecution is going on today. And I would encourage people, before I turn it back to you, if you get the opportunity ladies and gentleman, to get Richard Wurmbrand’s book entitled, Tortured for Christ, do so. It will be a great challenge to you and it will help you to understand what this concept of being persecuted for Jesus Christ is all about. Sam.

Sam Rohrer:

Gary, we have just about half a minute before we go to the break, let me just ask you, do you think that you have ever really experienced biblical Christian persecution?

Gary Dull:

Well, that’s a very good question, Sam. I mean, you know, maybe been mocked, been laughed at, our church has been picketed because there’s certain stands we’ve taken upon the Gospel that maybe in a little sense that’s persecution, but it’s nothing like many of our brothers and sisters in Christ are going through in the world around us today.

Sam Rohrer:  

And Gary, it’s not surprising me that you answered it that way because if you would have asked me the same question, I would have said exactly what you said. But ladies and gentleman, that probably is what, as I said at the start of the program, very few will have actually experienced in this country, true infliction of pain or punishment because of our faith in Jesus Christ. However, that’s not the case for much of the world.

Our general theme for today, is slow motion holocaust, Christian persecution around the world. We just dealt with the issue of what Christian persecution is not and what it is. But next question is, where is this happening? Well the very sad fact is that persecution, and specifically Christian persecution in particular, has risen its ugly head around the world in ways not seen before. Over the centuries since the days of Nero and the Christians in the Colosseum to the days of Stalin and Hitler and the current days of ISIS, Christians have been persecuted and martyred for their faith all around the world.

In this segment I want to identify where persecution is happening today. And to help us walk through this subject will be our special guest, Dave Bailey. He’s an educational consultant and he’s an author. His most recent book was entitled Shock and Alarm: What it was really like at the U.S. Embassy in Iraq. And with that today, Bailey, I’d like to welcome you to the program. Thank you for being with us today.

Dave Bailey:

Thank you.

Sam Rohrer:   

So let me go right off here to the first obvious question, Dave, and that is this, how bad is Christian persecution around the world today? And how does the frequency and the extent of Christian persecution today compare to what we know from years past? Can you walk into that with us please?

Dave Bailey:

It is remarkable today. According to Open Doors U.S.A., which is a tremendous resource, I recommend to anyone, they claim that 215,000,000 Christians are living under persecution today. And while the worst of the countries for Christians to live in is North Korea, North Korea is really sort of an isolated case. It’s not like North Korea is trying to spread its ideology around the world or anything like that. After that, the line goes down to Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan, Pakistan, Eritrea, Libya, Iraq, Yemen, let’s see what else we have here, we have Iran, India, Saudi Arabia, Rabia, Maldives, Nigeria, Syria, Uzbekistan, and the key point here is what you’ll see is Islam is the common theme to all of these. With the possible exception of Eritrea, which even though has a large Muslim population, is just in sort of dictatorial chaos. So it’s a little hard to pin it strictly on Islam. But the key point here is that there is a single ideology driving this persecution in every other one of these countries outside of North Korea.

Gary Dull:

You know it’s a delight to have you with us, Dave, and it’s amazing to see how this persecution is going on around the world and many people simply are not aware of it and I appreciate you mentioning some of these nations where persecution among Christians is the greatest but are you familiar with Voice of the Martyrs?

Dave Bailey:

Oh yes. Fantastic organization and it’s founder, Mr. Wurmbrand, tremendous man with a tremendous story and what he endured was just incredible.

Gary Dull:

Absolutely. And as I mentioned in the first segment, his book Tortured for Christ is a great book for people to read. But recently the Voice of the Martyrs put out a map, I don’t know if you’re familiar with it or not, but they highlighted some of the nations of the world that are hostile towards Christianity and other nations of the world where Christianity is restricted. And I am wondering if you would not mind from your understanding of those two terms as it relates to persecution, explain to our audience what it means in talking about persecution, what is a restricted nation and what is a nation where Christianity is hostile? There’s hostility towards it.

Dave Bailey:

Yeah, that’s a very important thing to understand. A hostile nation means that Christians are being persecuted more like on an individual basis, that is either through chaos or just a predominance of hostility towards Christians. Individuals feel like they can feel free to attack Christians with impunity. Whereas with restricted nations, it is policy of the government itself, that is the government itself is restricting Christianity from a legal perspective. Either making it illegal, making it illegal to build churches, having laws that do things like provide a death penalty imprisonment for conversion to Christianity from another religion. And that primarily happens with Islamic nations.

Sam Rohrer: 

Dave, let me pick up on that a little bit more. I’m looking at another map. Gary was talking about he was looking at one map there. I’m looking at another map, Open Doors, which you have already sited, Ladies and gentleman you can go to that site and you can see what we’re talking about. I encourage you to do that, but on the map I’m looking at there, they’ve actually taken the whole world and laid it out there on a flat map, and they’ve identified the countries of the world in three different colors. One of them in yellow, the way they have it, is it designates high persecution. Tan color is very high persecution and then orange is designating extreme persecution.

And if I count this right, there are ten on that list that they have that are designated as extreme. And I believe that you did identify those countries at least in the list that you just went over. But as I compare this extreme persecution here as they have laid it out, you and I, and we’ve made the theme this program, we used the word holocaust, slow motion holocaust. When you look at that combined with all the things that you know, and we’re talking about now, why do you believe that that designation, slow motion holocaust is an accurate designation? Is that really what we’re witnessing?

Dave Bailey: 

Yes, it is. And it operates in different phases depending on the conditions on the ground, okay? For example, Afghanistan’s listed by Open Doors as the number two worst place for Christian persecution and a few years ago I remember reading an article where Afghanistan was celebrating the demolition of it’s last church. Now, the point there is, that in Afghanistan the persecution has basically come to it’s full conclusion. All the churches have now been wiped out and the Muslims there are very happy about it. They celebrate, okay?

And back in 2006 time-frame I remember there was a story about a man who converted to Christianity and it was discovered by his wife because he was found to have a Bible next to his bed, and for that he was imprisoned and was facing the death penalty and fortunately, I believe Italy intervened and the government of Afghanistan very neatly declared him to be mentally insane and exiled him off to Italy and that’s how his life was preserved. But that’s how complete the persecution is there. And the key point here is it’s not like the Islamist seek dominance and once they have established dominance they’re gonna let people go, take it easy. They are not satisfied until all other religions are completely extinguished, and they see Christianity as actually their number one rival, okay?

So it operates in phases and it does not let up. It just gets worse, okay? And the key thing to understand with that, is there’s Sharia law and if you see these countries sort of operating in similar ways, it’s because they are all following variations of Sharia Law, which may differ from one place to another, but fundamentally with regard to people of other faith like Christians, the treatment is the same and it just tightens the noose as control increases.

Sam Rohrer: 

Okay. Now I’m gonna jump in here again, I got Gary, I know you got a question. Hold it, if you can, just a minute. The next segment we’re gonna go more into the who and the why of what you’re talking about there.

Dave Bailey:  


Sam Rohrer:

But on that map, it’s interesting. I do not see China, really listed on that map. Yet, at least it’s not one of the extreme ones but I’m also looking at an article here today that just came out today that was passed along to me. The title of it is 215,000,000 Christians persecuted, says mostly by Muslims, but it goes into and it talks about an example here in China, where China just very recently actually went in and burned a building, a church, where 50,000, it was a registered church but they burned it to the ground because it was getting too big.

And then this morning I heard on the news, a different news broadcast, saying that the Chinese government had moved into churches as they had them, known them, or as they were underground, that had identified them, and were ordering people to give back their ties, actually the church to give back the ties of the constituents because it was illegal. Now, China is neither Muslim nor is it North Korea. How do you classify China?

Dave Bailey:

China is moving kind of in the right direction. They at one time were, I would say, every bit as persecutorial towards Christianity as North Korea was. The key difference is they’ve slowly been convinced that maybe Christianity isn’t as much of a threat to their power as they once thought. But the key thing is they are always obsessed with their own power and anything that they see as a threat to their power they will seek to crush. And so this is largely a way of asserting their power over the church and that’s what they want to maintain.

Sam Rohrer: 

But in reality, Dave, and Gary, that is persecution to some extent but slightly different, but still the same. Ladies and gentleman, we’re talking about persecution today. Slow motion holocaust, Christian persecution around the world. It’s bigger than ever. It’s in countries all around the world as we move into this next segment, we’ve defined Christian persecution, what it is and what it’s not, important to start there with the definition. Secondly, we’ve identified in the last segment, where it is happening and it’s happening, really, across the world but if you take a look at a big map, laid out and stretched out where you have the entire world flat before you like you see in some of the maps, the heaviest concentration is in the Middle East and it runs all through the Middle East and over into Pakistan and then over China and North Korea. But the biggest bulk is in North Africa and the Middle East. If you could think about that, that’s where most is happening.

But in this segment we want to talk about who’s doing it? Who is inflicting persecution on Christians and why? Now we talked about it just a little bit in this last segment but we want to bear down with it a bit more here. In the study of Christian persecution there are certain drivers, put it in that perspective. Perhaps the very worst, in my opinion, is government. When government gets involved in working against its citizens, it becomes, in my opinion, and I think as most would analyze persecution, become pretty extreme because government has the power to imprison you, to kill you and to bring a lot of factors to bear that are perhaps worse than other drivers. But, in other cases and places like that, about the only thing that can stop a government, once it’s engaged in persecuting people, about the only thing that can stop that is some other government from the outside coming in and waging war against them to defeat them. Kind of like what happened with Hitler and Stalin in wars past.

But there are other drivers of persecution as well. These are societal factors. They’re religious and non-religious leaders, they can inflict persecution. Extended family, organized crime cartels and a host of others that we would put under the broader category of society. So you have government, then you have society. But, to me, Gary and Dave, as I am thinking about this, to me it seems like the worst all of persecutors are when you combine the sanction of religious authority with the power of government to actually bring all powers to bear and throw you in jail or to kill you. When these come together, it seems that that’s when, for now according to the map at Open Doors U.S.A., when things become extreme, extreme persecution, it seems like they’re committed or they’re combined.

So with that, I want to welcome back into the program Dave Bailey, Dave is an education consultant, author of Shock and Alarm: What it was really like at the U.S. Embassy, he’s a member of Gideons International as well. He does a lot of different things, a lot of writing and so forth, but Dave, I wanna bring you back in right now and just ask you, from your research who are the major drivers of persecution, Christian persecution today around the world. Governments, religious entities, perhaps syndicated crime entities, and you can give me your comment as well at what I just said about the combining of religious and civil authority is perhaps the worst driver, but give me thoughts on this as you analyze the whole world, basically, and what’s happening here in the area of Christian persecution.

Dave Bailey: 

Well thank you. In another era, I would have said communism, okay? Invariably it is a political ideology. It’s just communism has sort of lost its luster and people who hate Christianity or whatever, have kind of moved on to a large degree. The new political ideology that has risen up as the great persecutor of Christianity is Sharia Law, which is associated with Islam. And the reason why I say Sharia Law, is that is not necessarily governmental, it transcends government individual Islamist, okay? Now that isn’t necessarily any old Muslim, I mean what I’ve seen is there are two kinds of Muslims. There are devout Muslims, those are ones who really follow Sharia Law, take it very seriously. And then there’s the Muslims who don’t want to be killed by devout Muslims, so they’re just as much terrorized by the devout Muslims as anybody else is. So it’s an important distinction to keep in mind.

But the key thing is Islam empowers individual Muslims to enforce Sharia Law, personally, whether or not there is a government doing it. And that’s very important to understand. Because, just because you don’t have a government enforcing Sharia, doesn’t mean that you are not going to be affected by Sharia. And that is what I would call the greatest threat that we are facing today and to the extent that Sharia has power, the greater the power the more of the threat there is. If there’s any power at all, it is somewhat of a threat to you. That’s why here even in the United States, we are affected by terrorism.

We talked about, you know, are we being persecuted. Well, I don’t know about you, but our church has started a new policy where we’re locking the doors once the church service starts and we have somebody keeping an eye out for somebody deciding to come out and attack our church. Now we haven’t been affected directly ourselves, but because of terrorism elsewhere, this is what terrorism does. The whole point of terrorism is to make an example, essentially, of someone so everybody else has to watch out, has to tow the line, has to keep quiet and not do anything that will turn the sights onto them. So, we are affected by terrorism. If your church is now keeping guard, shutting the doors, locking the doors, changing their behaviors, you are affected by terrorism.

Gary Dull:  

You know, that’s very interesting, Dave, that you bring that out because I Pastor a church here in Altoona, Pennsylvania, and for several years we’ve had a security team but recently we have just hired a professional security force to guard us while we are in church for a long time we’ve locked our doors when people get in. And it’s unfortunate that you’ve got to do that, but you do have to do that today. But you know, just something that I want to make as an observation and then perhaps you can comment on it. I’m going to be going to India, I’ll be there three weeks from today as a matter of fact. And when I applied for my visa, they wanted me to sign a paper that said I would not preach or do anything religious in the country. Which means that the, you know, I couldn’t, if you want to push it, I couldn’t pray, I couldn’t sing, I couldn’t whatever in the name of the Lord.

And a Mission that I developed a number of years ago, well we have missionaries there in India, and one of the things that I have learned from our missionaries there is that even though Islam is recognized perhaps as the number one persecutors of Christians in many areas, in India, Dave, Hinduism is starting to persecute Christians. And what they are doing there is that they are attempting, that is the Hindu religion, is attempting to get the government to stand with them to persecute Christians so there again, you would see the coming together of a religious entity as well as a governmental entity. Most people don’t think that Hindus persecute. But in some portions of the world, they’re doing that from what I understand. Your thoughts?

Dave Bailey:    

Well, that’s an excellent point and I’m glad you brought it up. There’s a fundamental difference. Now what you’re saying is absolutely true. I’ve been reading about it myself, but there is a fundamental difference. And the fundamental difference is Hinduism is not a proselytizing faith in the way that either Christianity or Islam is. The reason you’re seeing that persecution is motivated by defensive thinking. That is, Hinduism in fact, is on a relative decline whereas other religions are increasing, Hinduism is kind of holding steady or declining, going down. And they’re feeling that. They feel threatened. So it’s a response to feeling threatened. When Christians are proselytizing in India, what that does is they’re actually proselytizing most of the people at the bottom of the caste system, because they have something to offer those people that the Hindu caste system does not offer. And that’s attracting them and that’s upsetting the whole social order over there and that’s what’s driving it, okay? And so it’s not like the persecution of Christians by Hindus is going to start happening here in the United States with Hindus who are coming over from India, it’s localized to that particular area where Hindus are feeling like they have to defend their faith from the infiltration.

Sam Rohrer:  

As we move now into our final segment here, we’ve tried to undertake, really ladies and gentleman, in a very surface way. Because we could spend hours and hours on this matter of Christian persecution. We tried to define what it is and what it’s not, where it’s taking place, and who primarily is the instigator. Now, we’ve mentioned that when it comes to the who, that the worst offender now, is the Islamic ideology and is what our guest Dave Bailey just said in the last segment, that what makes Islamic ideology so critical in this matter is that they as a religion, as the religion component political system, they are bent on dominating the world. So there is a great zealousness behind what they’re doing. And because of Sharia Law concept it empowers the individual to take power or action into their own hands.

Now there are some governments in the Middle East, some of the worst offenders are Pakistan and Somalia and Sudan, these are Muslim nations by and large, but it is the combining with the empowering of the individual, that’s an interesting point we want to bring out here. But the reality of it is that Christian persecution is undeniable. It is on the increase. There are more being persecuted now than, as far as we can let tell by looking back than has ever happened. The drivers of persecution though, regardless of the circumstance will always surface where the citizens or the nation’s leaders deny the God of the Bible. They deny the person of Jesus Christ and they embrace the lie that says that man can become God. At that point then things began to really unwind.

So whether the ideology is Emperor worship with Nero, communism with Stalin, or Nazism with Hitler, or Islam with Muhammad, or Hinduism we’re talking about, any of these, the question is, “What can we do about it as Christian persecution is increasing around the world?” And Gary, I want to go to you first, from your perspective here, you just said you’re going to be going to China, you’ve already suffered a little bit because they basically said, “We won’t let you into our country unless you promise not to speak about Christ,” that’s an amazing thing, Gary. So it’s happening in a lot of ways but persecution, you said earlier, shouldn’t come as a surprise for those who truly live Godly, but build that out just a little bit about the reality of persecution, just so we know, that regardless of where we are, what country we may find ourself in, that point that Christ made, is eternally true.

Gary Dull: 

Well, it is, and of course I’m actually going to India, not China this time.

Sam Rohrer:

Did I, I got that wrong, India, yes sir.

Gary Dull:

But it’s the same neck of the woods, I guess, but yeah, I am doing that. But you know, you talk about Second Timothy 3, in verse 12 that says, that we can expect persecution to a certain degree. But I also think of First Peter and I would encourage every one of you who are listening today to do some studying in First Peter, because it’s dedicated to preparing us, equipping us for suffering. And in First Peter chapter 4 in verse 12, it says, “Beloved think it not strange concerning the fiery trial, which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you, but rejoice in as much as you are partakers of Christ’s sufferings. That when his glory shall be revealed, yea may be glad also with exceeding joy.” Then he says, “If yea be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are yea.” And then of course it goes on so you see, that goes back to what our definition of persecution is.

Being persecuted for the cause of Christ. Not for something we might do, necessarily, that would be wrong, but being persecuted or reproached because the fact that we are standing for Jesus Christ. So in reality I think that throughout the pages of scripture, Sam, you can see that persecution should not come as a surprise even though it is true that we here in the United States of America, don’t face persecution to any degree compared to many other countries of the world do.

Sam Rohrer: 

And Gary, you did not say it, but I’m gonna just put in, ladies and gentleman, we should therefore pray for those. We may not be able to help directly, but we can pray for those. But we can also, there are entities, Open Doors U.S.A. and others are entities that help them. There are other groups and us bringing these things to attention are a part of what we can do. Dave, let me go to you right now because the fact that persecution clearly something that’s clear, we know that, but as I said earlier, when governments get involved in actually persecuting their people, about the only thing that can stop that are other governments and to a large extent, the U.S. government has probably had as much to do with stopping persecution in countries that have persecuted their people more than anybody perhaps in time.

And just two days ago, Sam Brownback, Governor Sam Brownback was approved, just narrowly, by the U.S. Senate to become the first Ambassador at large for religious liberty. I think this is one of his issues as well, but speak a little bit Dave, as to what governments can do, what our government through policy can do to help limit and stop the degree of Christian persecution we’re seeing around the world.

Dave Bailey: 

I thank you. The first thing I would say is remember we live in a democracy. And so if we expect our government to take the right actions, we ourselves have to be educated. So my recommendation to everyone is take the time to understand Islam. Even if it’s just a little bit, even if it’s in bits and chunks, don’t avoid the subject. I think one of our great problems in this country is people know it’s an unpleasant subject and they just avoid it like the plague. But that self-imposed ignorance basically makes it impossible for our leaders to make the right decisions because we’re either electing the wrong people to lead us or we’re not holding them to our principles. Because we’re not even aware that those principles are under threat.

With that in mind I have a newsletter called Islam Update, and if you contact this station say you’d like to subscribe to it, just do that and word will get back to me and I will provide that with you. And it’s simply current events throughout the world with regard to Islam and you can just see it in yourself from news reports. Not from me, from reports from the news and you can form your own conclusions. The other thing we can do as far as our leaders are concerned is beware of entanglements. We keep trying to turn Islam into something that it isn’t.

And that case that I brought up about Afghanistan in 2006, the most significant thing about that guy who was caught converting to Christianity and was put on trial for his life and was ready to be killed, but through last minute actions he was declared insane and sent off to Italy, the key thing to keep in mind is that all took place under a government that we helped establish. Now how the heck does that happen? The other part of it is the practical extermination of Christianity in the Middle East, largely in Iraq, that didn’t start with ISIS. That started when we came in and took over Iraq and the key point there is trying to set up democratic institutions doesn’t solve the problem if fundamentally you have a people that want to be governed by Sharia Law. You just get a democratic version of Sharia Law, which essentially is what we have in Iran, okay? And so that is so important.

Recorded APN Conference Call with George Barna on Feb. 6, 2018

On February 6, 2018, author, speaker and social science researcher George Barna joined the American Pastors Network for a pastors conference call on the topic of “The State of the Church”. Barna presented research from the American Culture and Faith Institute on the latest findings across the nation on topics of faith,  morality, biblical worldview, politics and more.

1-22-18: Finding God’s Love After Abortion




Sam Rohrer:

Well, today marks the 45th anniversary of perhaps the most dreadful United
States Supreme Court decision in the history of our nation. That decision turned
this nation from a nation of life to a nation of death, and that decision
guaranteed God’s judgment on a nation that was once birthed by God’s divine
providence. It's resulted in 90 times more deaths than all of the soldiers killed in
the battlefield in all of the US wars since 1775. That's right. Let me repeat that,
at over 60 million deaths this court case has sentenced to death 90 times more
people to death than all of the soldiers killed in all US battles since 1775. That
infamous court decision was none other than Roe v Wade which passed January
22nd, 1973, 45 years ago by a vote of seven to two.

Well, this week has also been declared by President Donald Trump to be the
annual sanctity of life week, appropriately so. We're going to focus today's
program on life. Our general theme for today is celebrate life. God does. We're
going to look at why life is sacred from God's perspective, here right off.
Segment two and three we're going to get a personal testimony from a woman
who yielded to the temptation to have an abortion, but then found redemption
and forgiveness through Jesus Christ, as we discuss a few of the personal costs
as well as the cultural costs of rejecting life. Then in the last segment we're
going to look at how we can restore a culture of life in our nation once again.

With that as a roadmap for today's program I want to welcome you to Stand In
The Gap Today, I'm Sam Rohrer host of the program here, and I'm going to be
joined by Pastor Gary Dull, senior pastor of Faith Baptist Church, Altoona,
Pennsylvania, and also executive director of the Pennsylvania Pastors Network,
as well as evangelist Dave Kistler, president of our North Carolina Pastors
Network, and president of Hope to the Hill in Washington, DC, and then our
very special guest Kim Ketola host of Cradle My Heart Today, that radio program
that she hosts. She's also the author of Amazon's number one bestseller Cradle
My Heart: Finding God's Love After Abortion.

Well, Dave and Gary, it's great to be back together with you two guys after this
weekend here on this national program that God's given us the privilege of
communicating all over America on nearly 450 radio stations on this program
alone, including now in the City of Washington, DC that covers Virginia,
Maryland, Delaware, Southern Pennsylvania. I think because of this topic today
talking about a Supreme Court case, really appropriate that we're there in that
market. Dave, I'd like to get some comment from you here. I think you listened
to some of the comments made at the rally, March for Life rally on Friday of last
week, but just before I ask you for your comments I'd like to play just a very
short clip, an introductory statement actually by Vice President Pence as he
welcomed that large gathering there to Washington, DC. If you could play that,

Mike Pence:

More than 240 years ago our founders wrote words that have echoed through
the ages. They declared these truths to be self-evident that we are each of us
endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights and that among these

are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. 45 years ago the Supreme Court of
the United States turned its back on the inalienable right to life, but in that
moment our movement began, a movement that continues to win hearts and
minds, a movement defined by generosity, compassion and love, and a
movement that one year ago tomorrow inaugurated the most pro life President
in American history, President Donald Trump.

Sam Rohrer:

Well, Dave, those were just a few of the comments from Vice President Pence.
First of all I'd just like to ask you just a general brief comment of what you
thought the Vice President said and then build out at least one element of why
the foundation of our constitutionally protected freedoms and rights here are
so intricately linked to life.

Dave Kistler:

Sam, let me say this, I think it's ironic almost but more than fitting that as Vice
President was speaking you heard a little baby's cry in the background, and that
is an amazing, amazing thing. He is 100% correct. These are the foundational
principles upon which our country was established, the first one being an
inalienable right given to us by almighty God, and that is life. His comments
were incredible, but then the President following up on what the Vice President
had to say, coming out as the first President in the history of the country to ever
as a sitting President to address that group was stellar. Sam, I think what it
signaled was a cataclysmic moral paradigm shift in the United States of America.
It is beyond encouraging.

Sam Rohrer:

Gary, let me go to you because I agree with what Dave just said, and I'm going
to play a clip in the next segment, a short portion of what the President said. I'd
like to take you, have Gary, from God's perspective give us a very short treatise
on why life being so sacred to God, why is that? Why because of that we should
view all life to be so sacred?

Gary Dull:

Well, I would draw your attention Sam to two verses of scripture, one back in
Genesis 2:7 where it says and the Lord God formed man of the dust of the
ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living
soul. Then over in the Book of Acts 17:28 the word of God says: "For in him that
is in God we live and move and have our being, as certain also of your poets
have said, for we are also his offspring." I could comment greatly on both of
those passages of scripture, but the reason why God values life is because he is
the creator of life. He has breathed into the nostrils of Adam life and, of course,
that's been passed down to us. Then as is brought out there in Acts chapter 17,
we are his offspring and so we are made in God's image, therefore we should
respect life as we respect God and what he did in the creating of mankind.

Sam Rohrer:

Gary, you are correct. All of us could spend a long time here, but ladies and
gentlemen what Gary just said, what Dave just said, God is the source of all life.
He created it. He breathed into that first body that he made. He breathed in life.
We're made in God's image. We are therefore special. We are therefore sacred.
When we cast off God in our minds and we cast off his commands, we cast off the sacredness of life. That's what our country has done and much of the world
has done for a long time, but never with good results.

Recognizing the sacredness of life as a gift from God and finding its sole source
in a loving creator God is one of the most profound decisions an individual, a
family, or a nation must take. To choose life results in blessings untold for the
individual and the individual as well. To choose death is a choice that results in
sorrow individually and for a nation God's judgment. Perhaps the most
applicable verse in all of scripture is found in the Book of Deuteronomy in a
section of verses of there, and it's these. I want to put down and list out for you
right now God's warning. This was a warning to the Nation of Israel who God
wanted to bless.

He said in chapter 30, verses 15 and 16 and following, it says this, God says:
"See, I have set before you this day life and good, death and evil. If you obey the
commandments of the Lord your God that I command you today by loving the
Lord your God, by walking in his ways and by keeping his commandments and
his statutes and his rules then you shall live and multiply and the Lord your God
will bless you and the land that you're entering to take possession of it. If your
heart turns away and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other
Gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you will surely perish." Then in
verse 19 it says: "I call heaven and Earth to witness against you today that I have
set before you life and death, blessing and curse, therefore choose life that you
and your offspring may live."

Now, while this is often applied to the modern pro life movement and it's right
to do so in principle, this promise is a national promise, and so its implications
are enormous when it comes to national blessing or national judgment. It starts
with individuals like you and me here today. It's my honor to welcome now to
Stand In The Gap Today a woman who was all too familiar with the personal
side of this decision to choose. Her name is Kim Ketola. She's the host and
executive producer of her own radio program, Cradle My Heart Today, and
author of a bestselling book about her life on this very subject entitled Cradle
My Heart: Finding God's Love After Abortion. With that I want to welcome to
Stand In The Gap Today Kim Ketola. Kim, thank you for being with us today.

Kim Ketola:

I appreciate it. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Sam Rohrer:

Well, Kim, it's really wonderful and it's an honor for us to have you on the
program today. You've been a real blessing to many, many women and men
across this nation as well. I'm glad that you've really taken the time to share just
a bit of your story with our listeners across the country today. Before I ask you
to share your story, I'd like to play a less than one minute clip, Kim, of President
Trump's address to the March for Life rally in DC on Friday. Just a short clip.
Russ, if you'd play that please.

Donald Trump:

Thousands of families, students and patriots and really just great citizens gather
here in our nation's capital. You come from many backgrounds, many places,

but you all come for one beautiful cause to build a society where life is
celebrated, protected and cherished. The March for Life is a movement born out
of love. You love your families. You love your neighbors. You love our nation and
you love every child born and unborn because you believe that every life is
sacred, that every child is a precious gift from God.

Sam Rohrer:

Well, we've been talking about that. Life, a gift from God. Kim, on this infamous
45th anniversary day of the Supreme Court Roe v Wade declaring that the
taking of life of the unborn was legal and effectively put their fist in the face of
God, our creator. How significant is, first of all, that our President Donald Trump
spoke to the March for Life from your perspective and made those comments
that I just played? Just your comments please before we get into your

Kim Ketola:

It's amazing to me that he's the first President to do so. I think other Presidents,
maybe it's a technology thing because they could do it via satellite from the
Rose Garden, but other Presidents have phoned in remarks. This is an event that
for over 45 years has been drawing hundreds of thousands of people to our
nation's capital to make their voices heard on behalf of the youngest members
of the human family here in our nation. I applaud President Trump. I don't think
we have to agree with him about everything to see that this is a very good thing
that he did in aligning himself with the cause of life this month.

Sam Rohrer:

Kim, certainly it is a delight to have you with us, and you've got quite a
testimony and you've written a book on a very important topic that has helped
many women, mothers and fathers and families together no doubt, because it
relates to this terrible crime of abortion. You've entitled your book Cradle My
Heart: Finding God's Love After Abortion, and I think that's very significant,
because there are a lot of people, a lot of ladies who've had abortion and after
those abortions they've just felt terrible. They need to know about the love of
God. Now, I know you've shared your story many, many times and it's difficult
every time you share it, but if you would please I'd like to ask you to share with
us a bit now of your story of your testimony. You evidently found yourself
pregnant and very fearful. Share just a little bit with our audience today what
this was like for you and how you went through it please.

Kim Ketola:

Sure. Well, I was in a relationship and it was a committed relationship, and so
we were sexual active before marriage, which I knew to be wrong but I wasn't
thinking about whether it was right or wrong. Moral considerations were not at
the top of my mind. I guess I considered myself a good enough person, and I
certainly had never heard any teaching about the sanctity of human life when I
found myself pregnant. I thought, "Oh, well we'll get married. I'll tell him and we'll just quietly get married and save our reputations." Instead, he wanted to
save his future by eliminating the child. This was a shock to me and I was
mortified that he would treat me that way. I didn't have any resources to stand
up for myself. I didn't have any principles on which to stand, which I think is the
most important thing for us to really realize when we think about how can
women do this.

We have some sort of an innate sense in our conscience that there's another life
involved, but of course as is still happening the abortion industry sold me the
deception that an early pregnancy does not equal a child. It's just tissue. We
picture that and they're still telling women that. I wasn't ignorant. I was an
educated person. I knew about the birds and the bees, but I somehow believed
that this was not going to be taking a life. God intervened that day at the very
last minute to wake me up to what was happening and to let me know that it
was wrong. Now, I was not a follower of Jesus Christ. I had the remnant of some
childhood teaching, but I believe the Holy Spirit has given a moment of grace
like that, a moment of truth like that to countless others because I've heard
their stories. Many brave women at that point get up. Many women at that
point are held in place by workers in the abortion industry, and I've heard many
of those stories as well.

As for me, I didn't know what to do with that information, and they say it's fight
or flight, but the third option we have when we're panicked is to freeze, and
that's what I did. Although I knew it was wrong, and although it really was not
my choice, it was something others had chosen for me I passively allowed it to
happen. That engendered in me a knowledge that in my heart I had behaved as
a coward. I knew that I was then the last line of defense against the death of an
innocent child, and yet I protected myself instead. It's coming to grips with that
knowledge of your character, coming to grips with God's judgment, as he must
judge that justly, that drove me to finally seek my healing and write about what
that journey was like when I wrote Cradle My Heart.

Dave Kistler:

Kim, let me ask you this, and it is a delight to have you aboard. How quickly after
you succumbed to this abortion did you come to a personal relationship with
Jesus Christ?

Kim Ketola:

It took many, many long years and the abortion absolutely impeded it. My first
question was does God hate me. My next question was am I going to hell. My
next question was what about the baby, have I doomed a baby to hell? I had a
lot of ignorance. I had a lot of misconceptions about God, but the fear drove my
lack of a relationship with God and when that would become intolerable I would
just deny that it was ever a problem at all. I would sink into the cultural
rationalizations: "Well, it was the best that I could do. It's legal. He wasn't there for me." Whatever it is that we tell ourselves. Then when the truth would dawn
once again, there was just an endless cycle of despair and denial, and despair
and denial. That lasted for over 20 years until a woman spoke the truth of God's
word to me from 1 John 1:8-9 and told me that that forgiveness and cleansing
was for me personally.

Praise God, the Holy Spirit opened my eyes and I was given the gift of faith and I
believed. It was probably a period of maybe 10 years of attrition feeling worse
because now I knew that Christ had died for my sins, but I had no idea how to
reconcile this particular action. Yes, I think abortion destroys the spiritual lives
of women, I know that firsthand, and I know it from the many stories that I've
heard and told as well.

Sam Rohrer:

Let me go back now into our discussion with Kim. We're looking right now at the
ugly impact side of the equation, that decision made years ago. As God told
Israel in that Deuteronomy passage, blessings both national and personal would
result from choosing to obey God and follow his commands. He said that by so
doing that would result in choosing life, but choosing death and hardship and
judgment both nationally and personally would result also from rejecting God
and his commands which are all about preserving and working with the
sacredness of human life created in his image, and it's the same as choosing
death. The cost is always high of choosing death personally, culturally,

Now to talk about this further I want to go back to our discussion with Kim Ketola. Kim, I'd like you to pick up just a little bit before we get into looking at
some cultural impacts of abortion on this nation, or frankly any nation. You
were talking about it was 20 years that you dealt with some guilt and all of that
associated with it. Talk to us a little bit about the downside of not choosing life.
What kind of scars, what kind of difficulty are we bearing as individuals involved
or families involved in this type of thing? Just give us some insight if you could

Kim Ketola:

Well, I was extremely angry with the people who failed to support me. I was not
able to forgive when it would have been appropriate to forgive and would have
freed me from that experience. I poured myself into my career with a
vengeance, because after all what had it cost me? Then because I had that
abortion three months in to meeting my goal of starting a radio career in
Minneapolis and Saint Paul. I was on the air continuously there for over 30
years. I was part of the cultural landscape. You just couldn't escape me. I was 23
years old and just starting out in that launch phase. That's when most women
choose abortion, by the way, it's not primarily a poor women's problem. It's not primarily women of color. It's primarily middle class white women in the launch
phase who are choosing abortions to protect their income and to protect their
future, and that's what I was doing. I was a poster child for that.

As I advanced in that career I had no peace, you know unless the Lord builds the
house, those who build it labor in vain. With every bit of success, with every bit
of advancement a guilty conscience would tell me that I didn't deserve it and I
shouldn't enjoy it. I was terrified that people would find out what I had done,
once I did become a Christian in my late 30s. I had children. I married and had
children. That marriage had no chance. Christ was not at the center of it, but I
was not healed. I was working out all my issues, trying to, within this marriage
that was crippled by a lack of faith. Abortion, it definitely impacted my
parenting. I became very overprotective of my firstborn, and it was very difficult
for me to bond with my children when they were young. I didn't trust myself. I
knew I had harmed my first child, my child that's in heaven now, and so all of
these ways are … There are many others.

We have in the research a sixfold increase in suicide and suicidal gestures in
Finland, and that research is pure because they have national health care and because the women there, there's no stigma, and there's no disincentive to
report as we have here in America. Finland has had to address it as a public
health crisis. They haven't been all that successful. There's still, I think, a twofold
increase now after all their interventions. I thank God I didn't go to that level of
despair, but it's absolutely a potential for those who have an abortion
experience, one or more.

Dave Kistler:

Kim, let me ask you this question. I am the son of a father who came out of a
very dysfunctional and broken home. I've heard him describe many, many times
before he went home to be with the Lord about how difficult it was in that
broken home, ordered out of the home when he was a 14 year old, lived with
seven different families from the time he was a teenager until he graduated
from college, and he struggled with a lot of issues as a result of that. He made
this statement that I've never forgotten, he said, "The moment God gave me
victory was when I realized that God loved me as much as he loved anyone else,
and that verse of scripture in the Bible that says when my father and mother
forsake me then the Lord will take me up."

I would love for you to describe if you could the moment you realized there is
forgiveness available in the person of Jesus Christ for this act of abortion I
committed and there is a bright future ahead for me. I'd love for you to describe
a little of that if you could.

Kim Ketola: That's a pleasure and that's a joy. I think what it drives toward is for everybody listening to this to understand that one of our primary purposes here is to be
Christ's dwelling place among men, that the Holy Spirit, our bodies are meant
for that. Women can understand that as vessels of new life, but until we are
indwelled by the Holy Spirit we're likely to do just about anything with our
bodies and with our lives. Yes, grasping God's love was the game changer for
me, and it happened at a retreat. I was watching the passion being played out,
and Christ was being crucified, and they asked us to put ourselves in the drama
and to determine who we were, who best reflected the state of our heart at
that moment.

I saw Pilate who was just being political and trying to extract what he could out
of it for himself and I saw his wife who somehow supernaturally knew the truth
but had nothing to stand on to influence anybody with that truth, and I saw the
weeping women who were with him, suffering with him. I saw those guards
who gambled for his cloak, and I had to admit that, as I've told you, I had been
saved. I had accepted Christ as my savior 10 years earlier, but I had not made
him the goal of my faith. I had not called him Lord. I had not submitted to his
lordship in my life. As I watched him being crucified for me and saw them and
their callousness gambling for his cloak, I saw how I was trying to cloak myself
with salvation at his expense when he had already paid it all for me.

I don't know, somehow his bravery allowed me to step over the line and say, "I
have no excuse. I am guilty of everything including that abortion, and I will take
whatever sentence you deem fit for me. I don't want you to suffer for me in this way anymore." I still can be moved to think about the beauty of his bravery on
our behalf. Praise God, I did, I expected to be condemned, vaporized, I don't
know exactly what. It was just like whatever happens I have to repent. Praise
God, instead of smiting me, he spoke into my spirit and said tell them I love
them. Tell them I love them, that that's what this cross is about. That's why it's my joy to bring up that difficult day and everything that went with it to warn
others but also to shine a light on the goodness of Christ and just how far he
went to bring me back to himself.

Sam Rohrer:


Gary Dull:

Kim, in your speaking there I'm reminded of the Book of Lamentations 3 that
tells us that if it would not be for the mercy of the Lord we would be consumed,
and how we can thank God for his mercy. I can imagine there's some lady
listening to us right at this very moment who is feeling very, very lost and lonely
because of an abortion that she has had. Could you just take a few minutes and
share with her what the mercy of God really is like and how it can affect her
right now?

Kim Ketola:

Well, I know that the following day God provided someone who said I had an
abortion and allowed me to confess it out loud to another person. I said, "I did
too." She held me and we wept, and in that moment I felt a supernatural
knowledge that my child was safe in the arms of our savior. This is what really
released me, that I no longer needed to protect and guard that awful day. I no
longer needed to stay attached to the grief over the loss of my child. I want you
to know that as a woman who's had an abortion we can so easily get our
emotional wires crossed. We read that grief as guilt. Sometimes, we're
Christian, we know we're forgiven but we can't let it go. I want to tell you that's probably grief, and it's not God's plan for you to languish in it even one more day.

There are abortion recovery ministries in the pregnancy health community
everywhere that can help you and get you started on a pathway to peace,
pathway to joy and a pathway to freedom to be able to share your experience,
when it's appropriate, with others.

Sam Rohrer:

On this 45th anniversary of Roe v Wade and all that has happened after that our
focus has been on life. Celebrating life, because God did at creation and he does
still to this very day. Our last segment, we want to continue as we complete the
solution segment here the theme restoring a culture of life, God's remedy. Now,
in John 3:16 the verse in the Book of John starts with the words, "Because God
so loved the world that he gave his only son." That was Jesus Christ, who came
and furthered the plan of redemption started at creation by God the father. He,
Jesus Christ, provided the only way to heal the deepest pains, the ugliest scars,
and to reclaim so much of what has been lost.

Now, in this solution segment we want to continue with Kim Ketola about how
she found healing and comfort after submitting to an abortion many, many

years ago. Kim, your book that you wrote it's about your life journey, some of
what you just shared in the last segment. As a mother you were confronted with
a pregnancy that was overwhelming. You opted for an abortion. Yet, in your
grief some time years later you said you found redemption and hope and all
that God gives in response from doing things his way when you trusted Christ as
your savior. Now, I want you to go just a little bit further into this, because you
are speaking for hundreds of thousands of women, and you've shared some
insights into what you went through in your heart and your mind.

Go through just a little bit of that again as we look at God's remedy for healing.
Now, you are looking back and you've been healed. You've given testimony of
that, but there are a lot of women, fathers perhaps, husbands who maybe have
been involved in the whole of this thing as well and they have not yet found that
healing. Go into that just a little bit more if you can in this solution segment.

Kim Ketola:

Sure. Our solution, you know I worked up my material for the book, for Cradle
My Heart, while giving conference workshops while I was traveling with Ruth
Graham. We had about an hour and a half to deal with this topic, if you can
imagine. What can you possibly give someone about something so complex?
The answer is the gospel, and the answer is these healing encounters that Jesus
had with individuals, not parables. No. I'm talking about the portraits in our
family album of the Bible. We started with the lame man at the pool in John's
Gospel when Jesus asked him do you want to get well. The first time you read
that you're like, "What in the world? The guy's been lame on the sidewalk for 38 years. What kind of a question is that?"

I have found after abortion many of us don't want to get well. We cling to it. It
becomes part of our identity. "I will never forgive that. I can never be forgiven."
No, that is not Jesus' purpose and he zeroed in on blame, and he's talking about
how to motivate ourselves to move on from blame. As it says in Philippians,
forgetting the past, press on. Jesus said, "Do you want to get well? Get up. Pick
up your mat and walk. Pick up your baggage and let's get out of here." Then we
have the encounter of, of course, the woman at the well where Jesus said, "I
know every …" Her testimony was he told me everything I ever did, and yet he
came to talk to her and not about her sin but about her thirst and about true
worship. There's a key for you. Get in church and find a way to worship in truth
and be in community and in fellowship with other believers who can lift you up,
and you can confess and be healed as it says in James.

Oh my goodness, the story of the bleeding woman at the hem of his robe, and
again, this stunning question: "Who touched me?" You're Jesus. You know
everything. Why would he ask that? Because he wanted her to be able to stand
up and say, "What I could not do for myself to make myself pure in my impurity,
Jesus has just done for me. He has imputed righteousness to me miraculously."
What I love about her story is she's the only one that Jesus calls his daughter.
After abortion, we have this bodily shame that we know we've been defiled. We
know that our bodies have been misused. The very purpose of our female
anatomy has been disrupted and destroyed, and in many cases we've been maimed. Our fertility has been forever impacted. We can't fix that, but Jesus
comes and makes us clean, and then he calls us his daughters.

Oh my goodness, the things that Jesus did for the individuals who met him and
walked away healed I think are so, so powerful. I wrote this book for those who
can't go to an abortion recovery ministry immediately, or maybe they just don't
want to. It's not meant to be a complete resource, so you've got to be in
fellowship with other people and you've got to feel their arms around you.
You've got to allow them to receive your tears and assure you in person of God's
love for you.

Sam Rohrer:

Well, Kim, I wrote down a couple of things that you were saying there. You said
and identified these points of decision. One, you need to want to be healed. You
need to want healing. You said must be the desire to worship, which means
there's got to be a God focus. There will never be any healing without looking
towards the healer, that's God. Come to Christ, that's what redemption is all
about, and then when we put our faith and trust in him, he cleans all of those
things that have happened in the past, and then you stated finally must stay in
fellowship, because we need each other. I think those are great, great points.
Kim, have you found anyone, have you run into any woman or anyone your
point in life where this simple approach to healing has not yet worked? Will it
work for anyone?

Kim Ketola:

What is the GK Chesterton quote? It's not that people have tried the gospel and
found it wanting, it's that they've never tried it at all. No. I haven't, and in fact I've heard from many, many women that the material that we assembled in this
book has been so helpful, because again, it's the personality, it's the ministry
personality of Jesus Christ brought to life and applied to this issue, to our issue. I
think that's the help that people need. It's not that they don't really want to
believe. It's that they don't understand what it means for me. They don't know how to place themselves in a bigger story. Instead what happens when we don't
know how to do that we become sitting ducks and we become extras in Satan's
evil drama. We don't even know he's directing the action. We don't even know where all of the condemnation and all of the lack of peace and problems are
coming from. This is the beauty of life in Christ.

Sam Rohrer:

Well, Kim, we are just about done. Ladies and gentlemen, you're hearing something
that probably pertains to a lot of you. First of all, I recommend go to Jesus
Christ, clearly, obviously. Go to the word of God. It's the book that tells us all
about it. Kim, you share a personal testimony in your book. Where can people
go perhaps to get a copy of your book? Restate the title of it again and where
they can go to pick up your personal history.

Kim Ketola:

Thank you. I appreciate that. It's Cradle My Heart: Finding God's Love After
Abortion, and it's available wherever you can find books. Our website is It's a love offering. All of our net proceeds go to the
pregnancy health community, so we don't have any profit motive in this
whatsoever. We're blessed to be able to do that, and we also are blessed to have some donors. If you can't afford it, we can make books available to you
without expense as well.

Sam Rohrer:

Well, Kim Ketola, thank you so much for being with us today on Stand In The

Gap Today,

1-16-18: Is Trump’s Philosophy of “Putting America First” in conflict with Biblical Truth?

Isaac Crockett:   

All right. Well, thank you so much for tuning into our program today. We are joined, of course, by the honorable Sam Rohrer, who is the president of the American Pastors Network and also evangelist Dave Kistler, who’s the president of the North Carolina chapter of the Pastors Network. He’s the founder and president of Hope to the Hill Ministries. I’m Pastor Isaac Crockett, senior pastor at Hamburg Bible Church in Hamburg, Pennsylvania.

Well, as we begin our program today, I want to think back to yesterday, where Martin Luther King Jr. Day we started out with some powerful and timely quotes directly from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Today, I would like to revisit a topic that we’ve talked about often and that really kind of hinges on that part of equality that we talked about yesterday and that is the topic of immigration in the United States. I want to examine what the Bible teaches us about this topic.

Now, many in our listening audience have heard me before and you know that my family is about as much of the all-American melting pot as one can get. My grandparents immigrated to the United States from different countries. They met here in college. My mother grew up in Europe. I’ve had family members living in five different continents and my wife immigrated to the United States from India. She became a citizen as a child in elementary or middle school. A few weeks ago, my family, we were walking into a restaurant, my wife and my three children, when two women who I don’t know were walking past and one of them started kind of staring at me and staring at my family. Then she turned to me and she said, “Mail order bride, huh?” Evidently, she thought it was strange that I would be with my wife, who is of Indian descent, and our children, who take after my wife, considerably darker than I am.

I thought about that. I thought wow, that was very unusual. It’s not normal. Usually, my family and I, we fit well in our country because we have such a diverse country. Dave, I wanted to just ask you on your thoughts. I know that your wife’s family immigrated to our country and then also know that as an evangelist, you’ve traveled all over the states, but also, all over the world. Just like to get your thoughts on this. Do you think that America is more diverse or less diverse than other countries and do you think that the people in America, that Americans are more accepting or less accepting of foreigners than most countries?

Dave Kistler: 

Well, Sam, or, excuse me, Isaac, that’s a great question. I think it depends on which country you would compare America to. Obviously, we are an incredibly diverse country. We’re probably on par with most of the European countries, certainly with the United Kingdom, but if you were compare us to maybe African countries or other countries, we may be more or less accepting and more or less diverse. I think we’re pretty much on par with the European continent.

Isaac Crockett:

Very interesting. I think sometimes we get kicked around as if we’re not very accepting when in reality, we probably are very much similar to other countries. Well, Sam, our president has made it clear that his goal is to put America first in all of our policies. Now, many people have reacted to that policy of him putting America first, including a lot of Christians and speaking myself as somebody and younger evangelical, I know a lot of my peers have criticized him and have claimed that that is very unloving and some even saying ungodly. Looking at that policy of putting America first, taking our nation’s and making our nation’s efforts important, looking at from a biblical worldview, putting on our biblical lenses, so to speak, is that in line with the Christian philosophy, do you think?

Sam Rohrer:

Well, Isaac, it absolutely is to favor one’s country, to support one’s country. Why do I say that? Well, because the idea that countries are nations factors into it that if we understand God’s view, a biblical worldview, we understand that God forms nations. The Book of Acts it actually talks about God laying out the nations with their borders, geographical borders, from before time, so God established them because God works through nations. He raised it up. That’s why He instituted civil government, which He talks about in Romans 13 and other places and so nations have borders. Nations have personalities. Think of Israel, very distinctive nation. God picked Israel and God said, “I’m going to make of you, Abraham, a great nation and I am going to bless the nations of the world,” so clearly God favors nations. With them comes along the ability and the right to support them and to pray for them. When we pray for those in authority, we are to pray for … We don’t pray necessarily for everybody in positions of authority everywhere in the world. The idea is that we pray for those in authority over us and who we answer to.


Isaac, the idea of our nation first is biblical. It fits the biblical precedent and it fits the model as what God established with Israel, so anyway, so I’m just going to stop right there, but no, the president is on solid ground when he talks about we should favor our nation because this is where we are citizens. We’re hopefully citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven, but we are citizens of the United States, if we are, and therefore, we have a loyalty to this nation.

Isaac Crockett: 

Thank you, Sam. That helps as a Christian seeking to put God first, being a citizen of Heaven to realize that we can still be patriotic and still be a citizen of Heaven. Along with that, Dave, I wonder as we think through some of the things that are being said about our president because the refugees coming into our country and we’ve discussed this a lot on our program. That’s something that comes up often and again, comparing our country as a country that was founded on Christian principles, unfortunately, we’re getting away from those principles in many ways, but what makes us good is the good things that we were founded upon. Do you think that the average Muslim-majority country is anywhere near as accepting of foreigners and of people from other religions as we are in America and even with the refugee crisis, do we see Muslim countries stepping up to do more for Muslim refugees than what America and European countries are doing?

Dave Kistler:

Well, Isaac, let me answer the second question first. The answer is a definitive no, we do not see the Muslim countries stepping up and accepting refugees. In fact, over the last couple of years, as we’ve seen this influx onto the European continent of Muslim refugees, the Muslim world has not responded. They’re expecting Europe to respond. They’re expecting America by extension to respond, but they are not responding.

Then to answer your first question, are Muslim countries as accepting of foreigners as we are here in America? Again, the answer to that is a very definitive no. I have traveled a good portion of the world. I have been in countries that are either majority Muslim or are approaching, very rapidly going to become majority Muslim and here’s the dirty little secret. It’s the grand hypocrisy. What the Muslim world crusades for in America, what they want to do is have their opportunity to worship in their mosques and live their Sharia law lifestyle. If that were reversed and Christians were to call for the same thing in a majority-Muslim country, they would be denied. They have been denied. They are being denied. There’s a grand hypocrisy here going on, Isaac.

Isaac Crockett:  

Thank you, Dave. That’s good, I think, for all of us to remember this context. I know growing up in a family where my grandfather was in the Dutch Underground, he saw the totalitarian regime of Hitler firsthand. He loved this country. He loved this country before he ever came to it and became a citizen and yet, he loved God. He got saved actually seeing Christians give their lives for the cause in the Dutch Underground and was able to come over to America eventually. He loved what America stands for and he loved being a citizen and so what an important time to remember the context of what God has done in this country and to be able to be proud of that.

Well, welcome back to the program. We are talking about the issues that we are facing in our country, especially with this topic of immigration. I want to start out this segment by playing a clip of then Senator Barack Obama when he was running for president in 2008. In this clip, he’s going to promise comprehensive immigration reform and border security as a top priority in his first year as president. Russ, if you could go ahead and play clip one, please.

Barack Obama: 

The American people need us to put an end to the petty partisanship that passes for politics in Washington. They need us to enact comprehensive immigration reform once and for all. We can’t wait 20 years from now to do it. We can’t wait 10 years from now to do it. We need it done by the end of my first term as president of the United States of America and I will make it a top priority in my first year as president not only because we have an obligation to secure our borders and get control of who comes in and out of our country, not only because we have to crack down on employers who are abusing undocumented immigrants instead of hiring citizens, but because we have to finally bring undocumented immigrants out of the shadows.

Isaac Crockett:

All right. Sam, I think there’s a lot of things he said in that speech that are very good. In fact, I almost think that if President Trump were to say those same things, the liberals, progressives, the mainstream media would take it apart and claim that it was being racist or something. Unfortunately, I do not think that President Obama tried to make comprehensive immigration reform and border security a top priority during his first year of office. In fact, I believe it wasn’t until 2012 that he actually enacted DACA. Could you maybe tell our listeners why DACA is unconstitutional and explain why President Trump and his Department of Justice said that they really had to reverse it for legal reasons?

Sam Rohrer: 

Isaac, I would like to and if I could, let me interject a thought here because I think you made a good point. You said what Barack Obama said long ago, if President Trump would have said the same things, what would we see? I want to bring something here into application because what Barack Obama said and what Donald Trump said is that they both recognized a problem that faces all Americans, all the citizens know it. The difference is what is the goal of immigration reform? What was Barack Obama meaning by what he said? Well, it’s evidenced by what he did. What he said and what he did was he also, other clips could be played, he made it a point, if you recall, where he said his goal was to fundamentally change America. That was including that it wasn’t run by old white men. He made those statements. He wanted to change the mix and the culture of America.

Well, how do you do that? Well, through immigration. When Barack Obama said he wants to have immigration reform, he used the right words, but his goal was clearly something totally different than a Donald Trump who says immigration reform is needed because everybody knows it, but I want to make America great again. One diminishes the role of America and our culture as we have known it, Barack Obama. Donald Trump said we have to control immigration or we’re going to fundamentally forever change the culture of America so that it’s no longer what it used to be.

Into that context walks the whole DACA thing. Now, that’s when President Obama stepped in, made an executive order to try and make the children of illegal immigrants basically legal. Well, he couldn’t do that because immigration law is passed by Congress, so it was an executive order. President Trump has to deal with it because it’s a matter of being up in statutory law and so when the president just a couple weeks ago said we need to deal with this issue, he made it very clear Congress needed to deal with this issue and to make it a statutory, congressional-acted thing because he said, “I don’t have the power to actually do it.” You have that circumstance. You’ve got the children here. Barack Obama said all the way up to 31 years of age we’re going to let them stay if they want. Well, that was not something that he could do.

I’m answering your question in a different way, that President Trump has got to deal with it because President Obama did by executive order, usurped congressional authority relative to any matter of immigration, which happens to focus on the children who are here by illegal parents, immigrants, but Congress is the one that has to deal with it. That’s what President Trump has been appropriately saying. We got a problem. Everybody knows it, but Congress, you’ve got to deal with it. He’s saying we’ve got to deal with it so that it makes America great, basically, what America used to be and the immigration law reflecting that, counter, though, to what Barack Obama was doing, saying, and enacting.

Isaac Crockett:

With that, Sam, I was very disappointed when Barack Obama did not make comprehensive immigration reform. I know a lot of dreamers and the difficulties that they go through because of what happened and by putting it in this temporary executive order that every two years they have to be declared again, they’re not really citizens. They’re in no-man’s land. They’re kind of in limbo. Dave, kind of along with that, in this speech, President Obama said that we have to secure our borders and get control and he talked about bringing the undocumented immigrants or illegal immigrants out of the shadows. I have heard harrowing stories from some of my friends who have come over to the US illegally. I wouldn’t wish those experiences on anyone. They are not like the Superbowl commercial of a mother and daughter jumping on a pickup truck and coming to the border. A large number of those who cross illegally, they die. Many of the women and children, if not most of them, are violated in the worst imaginable ways. When they get to a place in America, many of them are still at the mercy of those same corrupt human traffickers that brought them here illegally. Dave, can this sort of painful and violent system of illegal immigration, how can anybody consider that humane or helpful to keep that going and why do you think maybe many progressives and liberals are against a crackdown on this illegal activity?

Dave Kistler: 

Well, again, Isaac, the questions you are asking are outstanding and again exposes the grand hypocrisy on the part of so many in Washington, DC who claim that we need to be a nation that just accepts anyone and everyone and they overlook the very scenario you’ve just described. It is horrific and women are treated in the most horrific ways when they attempt to immigrate here and many of those that attempt to come die either before they get here or die after they get here. It is an incredibly tragic scenario.

The question you asked though that demands an answer is why do they not want to crack down on this kind of activity. Why do they want to continue to allow immigrants to come here illegally and these kind of things happen? Well, you’ve got to understand and Sam, I think, alluded to it very well in the last response that he gave you. We’ve got those that want a globalist approach as opposed to a president right now that wants to have a very nationalistic approach. I don’t mean by that white nationalism. I mean a strong love of country and there’s nothing wrong with that. I think we established in the first segment that that’s biblical.

Some on the part of the left, some of the progressives, see this influx of illegal immigrants as a great way to pad their voter base. That’s a very selfish thing, while others have a far more sinister thing in mind. They literally want to see the influx of immigrants coming into this country illegally to reshape the entire United States of America and remake it, as Sam so eloquently said Barack Obama stated very, very clearly. Either way, this has to stop and as Sam said, our president must deal with it.

Isaac Crockett:  

Sam, when it comes to DACA, when it comes to the refugee crisis, many well-meaning Christians and we talked about this just a little bit, but they’ve spoken out against President Trump for his actions. Could you maybe share with our listeners some of the things, some of the Scriptures that these professing Christians are twisting out of context to call for open borders and then could you maybe give us some biblical context for having the borders that you started to allude to in the first segment?

Sam Rohrer:  

Yeah, I can just briefly, Isaac, and that is this. The whole concept of nations is God’s idea. That’s where we got to start, God’s idea. The United Nations concept of today are trying to convince people that borders mean nothing, that we’re global citizens, rather than citizens of a particular nation. God established nations. Acts 17 talks about that, so we have nations. Nations have borders. Nations have a common worship of a common view of God. They have a common language. That’s the definition of a nation. When there is an attack on those things, there is an attack on nationhood, which then moves us right into the global concept which ultimately we know as believers there will one day stand up and there’s going to be an antichrist that’s going to stand up and take a leadership of the nations of the world and they’re going to yield to him their leadership. That right now is not what we want to do. That’s not where we’re going. That’s only where we’re going to end up, but the nationhood concept comes from God Himself, Isaac, and so open borders, any of those kinds of things, common, multiple languages within a country. They all speak against what God has established for nations and it works against God’s plan for the nations.

Isaac Crockett:

Dave, we’ve all heard a lot of emotional, impassioned diatribes against President Trump, saying that he’s even a racist, but when we think especially of these dreamers who were brought over as children, does the fault of that situation lie on the families that brought them over and the countries that were so horrible they felt like they had to escape or does that fault fall on our president and our people?

Dave Kistler:

Isaac, let me say this very, very quickly. Our president is not a racist. If you’ve ever visited any of his properties, the Trump International Hotel in Washington, DC, in New York, and I visited some of them and I will tell you this, he employs all kinds of ethnicities and nationalities. Those people love working there. It’s obvious they are treated well and their response is over the top good toward the president, so he’s not a racist. There is enough blame to go around on a number of levels. Our immigration policy has encouraged people to come here and attempt to come here illegally, so we do bear a little bit of the blame. The countries that are so horrific that people want to escape them, of course, bear some blame, as well.

Isaac Crockett: 

Well, thanks so much for summing that up to me. This is a very important topic. I hope that you’ve enjoyed listening to it. We have a lot more to talk about in this way. I’ve lived in Central America, worked in Mexico. I have a lot of friends who have come over here and so I want to continue talking about this. Well, we’ve been talking about immigration and seeing what’s been happening under the new administration regards to DACA and to refugees. We’ve looked at biblical teachings on nationhood and boundaries and borders, but I want to tie this into what was talked about earlier this week on this program.

It was pointed out that the Muslim population in America is growing significantly. Sam, you referred to that a few moments ago, as well, and under President Obama, a large number of the refugees coming to our country were identifying as Muslim. Now, in November of 2015, towards the end of his time as president, there was an article in the Washington Times and this was the title. The title was, “US Discriminates Against Christian Refugees, Accepts 96% Muslims, 3% Christians.” The author of that article pointed out that of the thousands of Syrian refugees being accepted to our country, only 3% were Christians and 96% were Muslims.

Now, in an interesting turn of events, an article that I read earlier this month in the Washington Examiner has this title, “In Switch, Trump Favors Christian Refugees Six to One Over Muslims.” The author in that article, Paul Bedard, writes, “Since the fiscal year began, 60% of new refugees admitted into the United States have been Christian and just 13% Muslim.” Dave, I want to go to you on this one. What is your reaction to this major shift in refugees under the current administration?

Dave Kistler:  

Well, Isaac, one of the things we need to recognize and need to never forget is that immigration policy reflects priorities. It reflects a nation’s priorities and it certainly is a strong indicator of a president’s priorities and under the Obama administration, the president was merely being in those days consistent with his philosophy. Many of those listening to this program right now will remember the now very famous speech where the president said America is not a Christian nation. In fact, if we were to calculate the number of Muslims in this country, we could be considered one of the world’s leading Muslim countries. He constantly demeaned the Judeo-Christian background of this country. Now you come to 2017 and 2018, we have a different president, Donald Trump, and his immigration policy reflects the priorities that he believes and I’m going to say it this way, the priorities that are consistent with the founding of this country. We are a Judeo-Christian nation. We were founded upon such and so my response to this dramatic shift is that it cannot and will not be anything but good for the United States of America.

Isaac Crockett: 

All right. Sam, Dave has said this is a good shift. It’s showing a priority back to our Judeo-Christian roots. It’s also showing that we believe that Christians who are being persecuted in the Middle East need to be able to find refuge here. What do you attribute this shift in refugees to? Are there policy changes that President Trump has made directly that are relating to this matter? What’s going on that’s making this happen so fast?

Sam Rohrer:

Well, I think what’s happening, Isaac, and Dave pointed well to it, you have to say it’s an understanding of what constitutes a nation. Every nation is comprised of a certain body of law, a certain predominant ideology. Effectively, the definitions of a nation is a common borders, common language, common view of God. That’s the definition of a nation. Well, here in the United States, God is the God of the Bible. The Constitution is the governing body, the highest body of law based on biblical principles.

You go to Saudi Arabia, you go to Syria, you go to Iran, it’s not the Bible and it’s certainly not a common view of God. Allah is not the God of the Bible, so in effect, what you have here is that you have this common view of what constitutes a nation, but it’s based on a God and we are in a constitutional republic, so Barack Obama, when he did what he did, he was consistent with his philosophy. His philosophy is not governed by the Constitution, nor is it governed by our law. What you see Donald Trump doing, when he stands, takes his oath, and puts his hands on the Bible, he’s operating consistently, more consistently with what our Constitution says, what the Bible says, and what our law says and so this is a very, very big contrast that we’re seeing here in this matter and this president, I think, understands his oath, hand on the Bible, not the Koran, and the Constitution based on God’s word, not the Koran or not some Marxist document that a Soviet Union may be following. Those are the distinctions. Comes right down to what you perceive as the basis of law.

Isaac Crockett:

It really goes back to what we were talking about in that first segment is that they can use same terminology about immigration reform, but they have different goals. We’re seeing that President Trump has the goal of seeing our Constitution as the law of the land and the moral authority of the Bible that gave us the Constitution is being used. Well, it really brings up something that came up in our show yesterday that Gary had talked about Voice of the Martyrs and the persecution of Christians.

Dave, you’ve traveled all over the country and you see how we are very comfortable as Christians in our country for the most part. We don’t see a lot of persecution in the way our brothers and sisters overseas have. We’ve had people on our program who have faced persecution, especially in the Middle East, people on our program who have lost families and friends, who’ve been tortured, even killed for Christ. Dave, what would you say to our listeners so that we could encourage them and encourage ourselves to pray more for the persecuted church?

Dave Kistler:

Well, Isaac, I would say this. All it takes is listening to one of the many guests as you’ve referenced that has been on this program citing and I’m thinking of one dear brother who watched his own physical brother beheaded because of his faith in Jesus Christ. Of course, this occurred in a majority-Muslim country. In addition to listening to that, all it takes is traveling outside these United States into some of these countries that are now rapidly falling under the sway of Islamic ideology and Islamic Sharia law and you see something that motivates you like you will never be motivated to pray.

I’m reminded, Isaac, of a trip to the African continent. I remember a young man, young pastor coming up to me. He was so full of the joy of the Lord. He was one of the most wonderful representatives and advertisements for the gospel of Christ I’ve ever met. A gentleman saw me talking to him. He pulled me aside later and he said, “Dave, that young man’s church is surrounded on three sides by Muslim mosques.” Then he said this. He said, “Unless something dramatically changes, that young man will one day die for his faith because he is so vocal, so vibrant about sharing the gospel.” Those kind of things will motivate you to pray for the persecuted church. We don’t see much of that in the United States of America, but unless something changes, unless we get our immigration laws fixed, we’re going to see more of that in the United States, as well as around the world.

Isaac Crockett:

Very powerful. Dave, that reminds me of very close family member of mine. I won’t say who and what country in Africa it was, but he and his wife were discipling a young girl whose family was Muslim. She asked, “What does it mean to take up your cross?” They said, “What would happen if your parents find out that you’re studying the Bible?” She said, “Oh, I understand.” Shortly after that, she came back beaten and bloody and she said, “I have accepted Christ as my savior and I’ve taken up my cross.” We don’t see that in our country so many times. Sam, what can we do as comfortable Christians in America? What can we do to pray for, but not just to pray for, other things that we could do to help our persecuted brothers and sisters of Christ in other parts of the world?

Dave Kistler:

Well, Isaac, it’s a great question. One of the most fundamental things as American Christians we know they just need to understand what the Bible says because most Christians in America who call that name by their own words, Isaac, don’t really have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. To be a cultural Christian, which is just to say I live in a Christian nation and I like the benefits that come from Christian laws is far different than to be a true believer in Jesus Christ, who understands who God is through Jesus Christ and the salvation that He provides and to live accordingly.

What do we do is that American Christians really need to look in the mirror and say, “Do I really know Jesus Christ as my own personal savior or am I trusting in something else?” That’s where it starts. If we don’t understand as a true believer in Jesus Christ in this country, Isaac, we will lose our nation because we will not understand the basis of our laws or who God is through Jesus Christ that makes all this possible. I submit that part of the true reason we’re in trouble in our country because we have too many cultural Christians who enjoy the benefits of what God have done, but they don’t know Jesus Christ personally.

Isaac Crockett: 

Amen. Our currency says in God we trust and a biblical worldview of God’s redemptive plan will make all the difference in the world when it comes to this topic of immigration, of praying for our brothers and sisters in Christ. Welcome back, folks. We’ve been talking about the diversity that we have in our country and the strengths that we have here in America because of the melting pot effect that we have, but especially because of the foundation that we have in our founding documents on the word of God and from a biblical, Judeo-Christian, Bible-believing worldview.

We’ve also seen that there are many dangers and warnings out there for a convoluted and broken immigration system and so now, as we’ve talked through so much of that, I want us to be able to wrap these things up with some solutions to what’s going on. I want to think about our opportunity to use this country that we live in as Americans to reach souls from all around the world that are here in our own backyard. Before we go into that, Sam, could you maybe once again just briefly delineate the role of government on this issue of immigration and of boundaries and nationhood as opposed to the role of the individual or the role of the church in responding to other individuals who are in our communities that may be from other parts of the world?

Sam Rohrer:  

Absolutely, Isaac. I think that’s a great, great question. When we on this program talk about biblical worldview and I’m going to use that word right now, that means looking at the world from a biblical perspective as God looks at it. We can’t talk about government or church or the individual or differences between nations without saying well, what does God say about them? Well, what we know is that God has these institutions. He has the individual. We all answer to God independently for ourself. He has the family that now is its own structure, fundamental bedrock of all nations. Then you have civil government, which can vary one nation to the other, but that’s what forms the nation. Then you have the church. All of these work together in God’s plan.

Now, the purpose of government is to, Romans 13, enact justice. Now, what that mean? That means praise those who do well and I’m going to put in praise those who do well biblically according to the definition of what God says is good, and punish those who do evil, to enact justice against those who break that law. That’s the purpose of civil government, to put into effect a structure that can allow all people to come and experience freedom. When that happens, then you have a nation to which people want to come. When you have a nation that does not do what God wants, then you have a nation from which people want to flee. The reason that people wanted to come to the United States is because we’ve had a system based on biblical principles, God’s design, and so like a light to the nations, the people have come and want to come for the freedom that is here. If we don’t keep it anchored, Isaac, to biblical principles and the purpose which God made it, we will not only lose our freedom, but the light to the nations will also go out. It’s very, very critical, but it’s anchored on God’s word and God’s design for what a nation is and its relationship to who God is.

Isaac Crockett:

What a wonderful reminder and everything we do is connected to that and even as Christians, we’re told to walk carefully in these evil days as children of light, not as children of darkness, so important. Dave, kind of building on that and we’ve been talking some about this in between the breaks and you’ve shared some things that have been happening in your own ministry, but you’re an evangelist. You get opportunities to evangelize all over the country. How can we use the diversity that we have in this country as individual Christians and churches and how can we take opportunities to evangelize the world by witnessing and evangelizing to our own neighbors?

Dave Kistler:

Well, Isaac, let me back up and just kind of underscore something that Sam so powerfully said in his last response. He’s talking about areas of jurisdictional authority. The government has jurisdictional authority and they are responsible before God, Romans 13, to do certain things. Sam stated it about as clearly as it could be stated. They’re to enact justice. That is the role of government, praise good, punish evil. The church has a different area of jurisdictional authority. That authority and that commission is sometimes called the Great Commission, is to win a world to Jesus Christ. The two are not in conflict with each other. We still have laws that we have to live by. We have a government that must protect its citizenry and allow people into the country only through legal means and those coming to the country that are intent on bettering the country, being a part of the system, not trying to overthrow the system.

All of that being said, with all of the people that are coming into our country, we now have a mission field that has come to us. We don’t even have to leave this country necessarily to find a mission field that is global in nature. They’re here among us and I praise God for this in very recent days. We had the opportunity of seeing two Muslim young men come to know Jesus Christ as savior who have come into the United States of America and, by the way, came in legally and they have had the opportunity now to trust Christ and live now for him in a country that affords them the freedom and the liberty to live for Christ, not one that attempts to squelch that.

Isaac Crockett: 

Well, what a powerful opportunity, what a responsibility that we have with this light that we have been given from God to share that and historically, America has been a great country to send forth missionaries. You know-