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Dave Kistler:                 Well, ladies and gentlemen, a federal judge recently told school officials in San Diego, California, to reveal details of their work with an Islamic advocacy organization that has been designated as a terrorist group. Of course, by that designation it puts them in the same classification as ISIS itself. Now a legal team in that fight says it has issued investigative subpoenas to the California chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, otherwise known as CAIR, as part of a federal civil rights lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the San Diego United School District’s anti-Islamophobia Initiative.

The case is being handled by the Freedom of Conscience Defense Fund, which is working on behalf of parents in that particular school district. Now, here’s the problem: The district’s multi-year program was developed under the direction of CAIR as a holistic plan to protect Muslim students and their families from bullying and discrimination. As part of the initiative, staff and students are taught by CAIR officials to become allies to Muslim students. And CAIR is empowered to revise school curriculum to portray Islam more favorably.

You heard me correctly: CAIR is empowered to revise school curriculum in order to portray Islam in a more favorable light. Well, the Freedom of Conscience Defense Fund is seeking communication between CAIR agents in the school district as well as documents tracing the Islamic organization’s strategic process for gaining inside access to impressionable school children. CAIR’s national director testified that proselytizing to school children is a “religious obligation” and that the purpose of CAIR’s educational outreach is to do precisely that, which includes passing out religious propaganda to students during class and attempting, according to CAIR itself, to create a religious educational environment.

The chief counsel for the LCDF, the group that’s fighting this, explained it this way. He said, “Through deliberate manipulation, CAIR has gained unprecedented power and influence over San Diego’s United superintendent and school board, and these subpoenas seek to answer questions about the extent of CAIR’s infiltration into the school district. And with that, I want to welcome you to Stand in the Gap Today. I am Dave Kistler. I’m your host today, and along with me to share the radio microphone is Gary Dull, the co-host today. And all this week, we’re going to be doing programs that unveil the evil that is Islamic ideology.

Many of you will remember the incredible poem the president recited during the campaign in 2016. He’s recited it at a rally or two since becoming president of the United States. That poem is called The Vicious Snake. And so our theme today is this. Exposing the Vicious Snake: An Expose of Islamic Ideology and its Grand Design for America.

To help us with our discussion today we have as our special returning guest Tom Wallace. He is the founder of Fortress of Faith. Tom is not only an Islamic scholar, he is also a theological expert and a former missionary in the United Kingdom. And so Tom, I want to welcome you to the program today. Thank you so much for being aboard.

Tom Wallace:               Dave, always it’s a joy to be with you and Gary. And I appreciate you guys dealing with this topic. I came off the foreign mission field to warn my countrymen of the dangers of Islam that is not just creeping into our nation, but sweeping. I think we are … I’m amazed at how fast things are developing here. So I appreciate you guys taking the time to cover this topic.

Dave Kistler:                 Well, Tom, you are one of our favorite guests. We always get great feedback when we have aboard. You’re also host of your own radio program. I would like you to say a little more about that before we end the program today. But let’s go to this topic of what’s going on in the San Diego United School District. CAIR, which of course as you well know, is a front group for the Muslim Brotherhood, has gained access to and unprecedented influence over America’s school children in that one particular school district, if not other districts around the country as well.

My question to you, Tom, is this: Does this surprise you or is this the modus operandi, the MO for CAIR in how they infiltrate a community, infiltrate a school system, even infiltrate our government?

Tom Wallace:               Not in the least. I’ve been warning people about this here for about 10 years now, and let me give you a quote from Omar Ahmad. He gave this down in Southern California back in 1998. He thought he was speaking to just a room of Muslims, but a reporter from the San Ramon Newspaper was there, East Bay Times. And this was July 4th. Now, Omar Ahmad, you need to understand who he is. He is the co-founder of CAIR. He and Nihad Awad founded CAIR many years ago.

And let me quote what Omar Ahmad said: “Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. In the Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America and Islam the only accepted religion on earth.” Now, they have two faces. They speak one thing to their Muslim community, and another face that they speak to the American public. And they build themselves, they fashion themselves as the civil rights organization to protect civil rights. But they are a Muslim Brotherhood front group.

What’s interesting is that the UAE, the United Arab Emirates, a full-state nation has not only designated the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization, but they’ve gone as far as identifying CAIR, the Council of American-Islamic Relations, as a terrorist organization. It’s very clear that the connections, if you follow it, you trace it, it’s not very difficult to follow this. But most of America is asleep at the wheel. We are not aware that this group is operating for the demise, the destruction of our country from within.

Gary Dull:                     Tom, this is very interesting that you bring this up, but my question is how are Muslim groups so effective in gaining access today when so often Christian groups are never granted that same access?

Tom Wallace:               Isn’t it ironic we as a Christian nation, Christians are treated as the stepchild, the ugly stepchild here, and Islam is being embraced at every attempt. When Obama was our president, any opportunity he had to oppose or support Islam, he always went to support them. We see this happening so much, but let me give you really why all this is happening. It’s a spiritual battle we’re in.

Dave Kistler:                 Tom, let me hold you right there for just a second because we’ve got to go into the break. Ladies and gentlemen, about five days ago a video surfaced of Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel attending a meeting of Muslims where both Israel and one of his sheriff deputies spoke in Arabic. The meeting was held at one of the local Mosques. It was held during the month of Ramadan in 2015. So we’re talking about three years ago. The deputies said that Israel pledged to keep young people out of jail and to put “God first, your family second, and the community third.”

Now, I know what some of you are thinking: “Dave, what is wrong with that?” Sheriff Scott Israel of the Broward County Sheriff’s Department wants God first, family second, the community third, but he’s speaking in a mosque where the God of the Islamic community is Allah, and he is not the same as the God of the Bible. So there’s where the problem comes in. In that meeting, Israel speaks in Arabic to a group of Muslims. He credits his deputy Nezar Hamze as a like-minded individual who’s on the same mission as Scott Israel, the sheriff. And Israel compares himself and Hamze to lions on a mission.

Both Israel and Hamze boast that they want to keep young people out of jail rather than put them in jail. Israel says that he puts troubled young people in a program where they will get help with narcotics and other issues. This is a direct quote from Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel: “I want to put God first, my family second, community third.” And then Hamze, the deputy sheriff, who is a Muslim and a member of CAIR there in Florida quotes Israel as telling the sheriff’s office team the same thing.

Israel says, and I quote, ‘”here is only one perfect person: God. And you’re not it, and I’m not it. We make mistakes. Police make mistakes every day. And I understand that. And that’s why we have to partner with our community. Why is Nezar Hamze,” his Muslim deputy police chief, “here? Because as a man who studies Islam and as a Muslim, he’s going to find out information that we can’t. He’s going to bring information back to the community and take information from the community back to us.” And, again, this is Sheriff Scott Israel of the Broward County Sheriff’s Department speaking, and, again, Nezar Hamze, his Muslim deputy sheriff, who is also a member of CAIR.

Now, I want you just to listen to a brief clip of this 2015 meeting. The voice you’re going to hear first is … In fact, actually I think the only voice you’ll hear will be that of Nezar Hamze, the Muslim deputy sheriff in Broward County. I want you to listen to how charismatic he is. I want you to listen to him speaking in Arabic and then in English, getting ready to introduce the sheriff of Broward County to this Muslim Mosque. Russ, let’s listen to the clip.

Nezar Hamze:               [Arabic 00:10:58], brothers and sisters. Allah [Arabic 00:11:01] has blessed us with another Ramadan. [Arabic 00:11:05] Allah. Allah [Arabic 00:11:06] has locked the Satan, and [Arabic 00:11:09] the sheriff continues to lock the bad people in jail. Al-ḥamdu li-llāh. Brothers and sisters, I wanted to stand here before you today. Lisa? Is Lisa here? She needs to come up. It’s important that we hear from our community, inshallah. I won’t take much time, and I’ll introduce the sheriff. But I want to testify before you, brothers and sisters, because it’s important for you to hear from us, inshallah.

Al-ḥamdu li-llāh. A couple of years ago I had an opportunity to witness our sheriff be sworn in. And he said something that resonates with me, and I want to share it with you so you know the type of individual and what he does. He said regarding our youth, our children, because we all focus on our children very much, he said he’s going to measure his success by how many kids he keeps out of jail and now how many kids he puts in jail. [Arabic 00:12:05].

Brothers and sisters, this was an indicator for me that this man is a straight man. He is a man of honor, of [huck 00:12:13], of justice. Al-ḥamdu li-llāh. I had another opportunity to hear him speak, and he was talking to his team, the employees, the deputies, the people that protect you on the street. He said, “I want you to put God first.” Listen to me. This sounds like [inaudible 00:12:31]. “I want you to put God first, your family second, and the community third.” [Arabic 00:12:40].

Audience:                    [crosstalk 00:12:41].

Nezar Hamze:               Brothers and sisters, this is the reality. This is the man that is our sheriff.

Dave Kistler:                 Ladies and gentlemen, that is an amazing clip that you just heard. And, Tom, I want to go to you immediately. You heard the introduction give to Sheriff Scott Israel. He then speaks in Arabic briefly and then in English the rest of the time, during which he insinuates that God is the same for Islam as he is for Jews and Christians, and on and on I could go. This man, I’m talking about lead chief Scott Israel and his deputy chief Nezar Hamze, were the ones who presided over, ladies and gentlemen, the failed attempt at protecting the innocent school children at Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. Tom, to be honest with you, I’m speechless, and I would love to have your thoughts on all of this.

Tom Wallace:               Now, I’ve seen that clip. Of course his deputy chief is dressed there in his deputy sheriff’s uniform, but listening to it just over the radio, the way you played that, at first I was thinking, my goodness, this man sounds like our former president Obama and when he’s addressing the Muslim community. It sounded so much like him. It brought back memories.

Yeah, one thing I think we also need to mention is that there’s a video of the sheriff dressed there and the chief deputy, they’re dressed in his Muslim garb, training this mosque, this Muslim community how they can and should protect themselves with guns. You’ve seen him with his Glock 19 there. They’re demonstrating how to protect yourself with guns, citizens or this Muslim community, and yet this very same Sheriff’s department is very much against teachers being armed and protecting our children there in the school system. I find that very ironic.

Now to address the Muslim sentiments and the Islamic sentiments that are being shared here by the Sheriff’s Department. One thing our American community needs to understand, in the eyes of Muslims, the God of Allah, the God of Islam, the God of Muhammad to them is also the same God of Moses, and of Abraham, and of Isaac and Jacob. The God who created heaven and earth, the God who created Adam and Eve, in their minds, they’re all talking of the same God. Every Muslim usually starts this conversation with me when I talk about my faith and their faith, “Oh, well, we have the same God.”

And I respond with this: “Oh, wonderful. That’s great. So then your god has a son?” Then they get this confused or mean look on their face: “No, for Allah hath no son.” Then I say, “Oh, well then we don’t have the same God because my God, Jehovah God, has a begotten son, Jesus Christ. So clearly we do not have the same God.”

But the point that they’re trying to make is that putting God first is that they’re trying to say, “We’re going to put Allah first. We’re going to keep your sons, your Muslim sons out of jail. We’re going to protect them.” And, yeah, it is kind of concerning that he’s addressing the Muslim community with this message.

Gary Dull:                     You know, Tom, for nine minutes, I say nine tragic minutes, we know that none of the Broward County police on the scene there at Stoneman Douglas entered the school building as kids and teachers were basically sitting ducks and being massacred. Then for 29 minutes, one of those police officers didn’t enter, but told the others to “Stay 500 feet away” from the building where the shooting was actually occurring.

And I know many people have asked this question, but I ask you what in the world is going on here? Why are Islamic police officers unable to really swear allegiance to the United States of America, to US law and really protect United States citizens?

Tom Wallace:               Now, Brother Dull, you have just raised a very interesting question. I believe that’s probably the most powerful question that should be asked: Can we trust Muslims to be loyal to the laws of America and also remain loyal to the tenants of Islam? Is that possible? My answer to that question is a resounding no. Absolutely not. If they’re going to be a loyal, faithful Muslim, they cannot be loyal and faithful to the laws of America because Islam will not permit it. They have a system that is an antithesis to the system of America. We cherish freedoms: freedom of speech, freedom of choice, freedom to choose who you worship, or not worship at all. Islam does not give that permission at all.

We get to choose who governs you. Islam doesn’t give that choice. Those choice and those rights, well, they’re not rights. They are things that you do not have rights to in Islamic form of a system. And so when Muslims swear allegiance to the Bible or rather to the American Constitution, to protect it, they’re either lying, or they are not a faithful Muslim, and I think that it’s that they’re lying to us. I think that’s been demonstrated time and time again.

Dave Kistler:                 Tom, what you’re sharing is very important information. It’s very disturbing. And ladies and gentlemen, there’s something about the Parkland shooting that makes no sense at all to me. It’s beyond odd that the heavily Islam-friendly, Islamic-infiltrated police force in Broward did nothing to stop the shooting for nine minutes or longer.

Ladies and gentlemen, this woman’s name you may or may not have heard. Her name is Barbara Sharief. In fact, her full name is Barbara Muhammad Sharief. And she is an American politician. In fact, she has been a Broward County, Florida, commissioner since 2010. And in 2016 she was reappointed as mayor of Broward County, having previously served from 2013 to 2014. And she’s the country’s first African-American female and Muslim mayor. You’re hearing me correctly.

In the same county where Stoneman Douglass high school is that has a very Islamic-friendly police department in the form of Scott Israel, the police chief and Nezar Hamze, the deputy police chief, who is a committed Muslim, member of the organization we’re talking about today called CAIR, Council on American-Islamic Relations, the mayor of Broward County is also a Muslim.

Now, why am I bringing that up? Friends, if you know anything about London, England, you know that Sadiq Khan is a Muslim mayor in that city of London, and he has clear ties to terrorists–that is a documented fact. It was him who after the killing of 22 innocents at an Ariana Grande concert said the following: “We are going to have to get used to terrorism.” In other words, terrorism in London, terrorism in England, terrorism in the United Kingdom, it’s the new normal, something with which we’re going to have to become accustomed.

So, Tom, I want to go to you. You’ve sighted this earlier in the program in segment one that you left the United Kingdom as a missionary there to come back to the United States of America to warn our nation, specifically to warn the church in America about a diabolical, sinister, demonic enemy. So my question is this: Why are Muslim mayors, Muslim law enforcement official, Muslim City Council members, why do people that are committed to Islamic ideology in those positions, why do they present to America an incredibly dangerous dilemma?

Tom Wallace:               Well, can I bring your attention to a document that was found by the FBI back in 2011? It was a document that was written by the Muslim Brotherhood, the Ikhwan. And it was found, the FBI found this in the home of Ismail Elbarasse back in 2011. He is a teacher or was a teacher in Virginia. The FBI became suspicious of him. I won’t get into background of this story of that, but they raided his home and found in his basement a secret room. And in that room was a cache of documents and media.

The prized piece of document that they found was a memorandum from the Muslim Brotherhood to the group in North America. Let me read to you from Page 7: “The Ikhwan must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying Western Civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house.” Now get this: “by their hands and the hands of the believers.” So what are they saying in this document from the Muslim Brotherhood? “We’re going to create a Jihad–Jihad is a holy war, a struggle against evil–“to eliminate Western Civilization.” How? “From within.” How are you going to do it? “Sabotage their house by their hands.”

We’re going to incorporate their own hands, their own system, and the hands of the believers. And on the back page it lists about 14 different groups that were complicit, that were working with the Muslim Brotherhood as front groups here. Now, the FBI has used this document as a court piece of evidence in the trial, what we call the Holy Land Fund Trial, in Dallas, Texas. During the Bush administration they were starting to put these people away in jail.

When Obama became president and Eric Holder became the new attorney general, he stopped that, and CAIR and ISNA and a number of these other groups there were designated as unindicted co-conspirators. They were getting around to prosecute these people, but they never got to it because of Eric Holder. And we need to press our current attorney general Sessions to reopen that case. All that there is waiting to be done, but that’s another issue.

Now let me return to this judge. They are putting key people in government, judges, mayors, police chiefs. They are jockeying for these positions. They’re training for these positions. And in England, in the United Kingdom, there are four hijab centers. I lived just two to three miles from one, and they are organized to train bankers, politicians, teachers, and they’re working to develop these people to get into government positions. This has been going on in the United Kingdom for since the time I’ve been exposing this and talking about this. And this is also operating here in America. I don’t know where they’re located. They’re a little bit more careful in hiding these locations of where they’re training these people.

Actually, I think they’re training them right underneath our nose in our institutions and setting them up because they’re being funded by CAIR, by Muslim Brotherhood, and they’re wealthy because we keep buying Saudi oil. So we’re funding our own demise. I know I sound like a conspirator, or talking about conspiracies and stuff there, but, folks, this is happening, and we’d better wake up to it.

Gary Dull:                     You know, I think this is a thing that we need to wake up to, Tom. It almost appears to me is that the average American is either blind about what Islam is doing or doesn’t want to understand what Islam is doing. And I wonder what the thought is among those who are leaders in our nation. You mentioned the attorney general, Jeff Sessions, that he needed to look into this again. Will he? Does he understand what is going on within Islam?

And as we understand it, Tom, it appears as though for years Islam has been working on infiltrating into government here in the United States of America on every level. So this isn’t anything new, as I understand it. It is something that’s been going on for a long, long time. And then to hear that statement that you rendered here a moment ago where they’ve written regarding us that they will sabotage their house by their own hands, that is critical.

And so my question to you is this: What about those who say we, those of us who are concerned about Islam, are overeating, or are just Islamophobic, or are crying wolf? How do you answer those critics who refuse to see what really is going on in front of our own faces?

Tom Wallace:               I remind them of how people reacted to Winston Churchill when he was trying to warn Britain about the bully, the tyrant of Hitler, that they ought to pay attention to him, that appeasement is the wrong move. It’s only going to give him time to get stronger, and they need to deal with him. They need to put that down. But they didn’t listen. They thought he was a crazed man, a crazed [inaudible 00:26:52] go away and just let’s just create an environment of peace as much as we can. And it doesn’t work. Appeasing a bully never works. It never has worked. Historically we can see that it’s dangerous. And many people died as a result because they didn’t listen to Winston Churchill earlier. And there were other people that tried to warn, but they didn’t listen to him.

And we have a new bully on the block. Back in the ’40s it was Nazism, it was Hitler. Today it is Islam, and they are infiltrating here. The thing that’s an advantage for Islam is that it’s fashioned, it’s designed under the face of a religion. So therefore it has rights to be practices here, and they can send their apostles around our country to spread their poison and to work their destruction from within. And the Muslim Brotherhood realized that. That’s why they, I believe, I’ve been saying the Muslim Brotherhood is the most dangerous terrorist organization on the face of the earth because they have identified our weakness, and they’re exploiting it. And we’re asleep at the wheel.

So far our government has not called the Muslim Brotherhood a terrorist organization. There’s a bill H.R.377, House Resolution 377, that the 115th Congress has put out there. It has a lot of co-sponsors there to get this bill out of committee and get it on the floor to designate the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization. Can you believe it, that our own country will not designate the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization when other countries have? That blows my mind.

Dave Kistler:                 Tom, let me jump in. We have about 45 seconds until we’re going to have to go to the break. I want to ask you this and ask you to respond very quickly. Obviously the Muslim Brotherhood and Muslim entities are strong opponents of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. They are fighting to get guns out of the hands of the general American populous. Talk about that for just a second, why it’s so important that we stand up and defend the Second Amendment because of the threat Islam poses.

Tom Wallace:               Every tyrannical government knows you cannot operate if the citizens are armed. You have to disarm the citizens if you’re going to control them with a dictatorship type of government, and that’s the Islamic way. The Islamic government is a dictatorship. It always has been. That’s what Muhammad gave them, and that’s why they practice the very same thing in their governments. You cannot have that if the citizens are armed, if they can fight back. And so naturally, yeah, it’s in their interest to see us disarmed, so they’re going to oppose the Second Amendment because the Second Amendment keeps us safe.

Dave Kistler:                 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to Stand in the Gap Today. I want to say this at the outset of this critically important final segment of our program today, in fact, it’s a segment we commonly call our solution segment, and I want to say this: Our discussion today is not meant to foster hatred for anyone. Our topic today is not directed primarily at people. We are addressing an ideology today that is beyond dangerous. Yes, adherents to that ideology have done, and are doing, and will continue to do very evil things, but we are to love those who are enslaved in any false ideology, including and I would say even especially the false ideology of Islam. These folks that are adherents to it have been enslaved by a deception. They have been lied to, and the only way they’re every going to be delivered from that deception is if we love them enough to tell them to truth and declare to them the glorious, life-changing, eternity-altering gospel of Jesus Christ.

But the ideology that they’re espousing itself is evil. I think Dr. Franklin Graham said it as well as it could be said when he called many years ago Islam an evil religion, and it is precisely that. It is an evil religion. I am not the least bit reticent to say that. Gary is not the least bit reticent to acknowledge that. Tom as an Islamic scholar is not the least bit hesitant to call Islam from an ideological standpoint precisely what it is: a deception, a lie, an evil ideology.

And so, Tom, I want to go to you. Obviously America has to deal with this evil ideology. It’s anti-God. When I say “anti-God,” I’m talking about the true God. It’s certainly anti-American. It’s anti-constitutional. And so in very practical terms, Tom, what can be done? What must be done in the United States of America to deal with this vicious snake that is making its inroads in rapid fashion across the United States of America?

Tom Wallace:               First of all, let me say, Dave, thank you for making that point that this is not to bash Muslims. America needs to understand they need to separate Islam from the Muslim. Please do not blame the Muslim for Islam. The Muslim is a victim of Islam. I have been saying this for years, and I’m just as passionate about us resisting Islam as I am about rescuing Muslims.

Muslims are victims. It’s an ideology that’s going to send these people to hell. They need the truth, and praise God we as Christians, we have the answer: It’s the word of God. And if we can only a Muslim into the Bible, and I’ve seen it happen so many times, that if we get them reading the scriptures with us, and they realize that they’ve been lied to, and they see the light of the scriptures, and they come to Christ. And so I’m also the founder of Missions to Muslims. I am as actively about trying to evangelize Muslims as I am actively trying to resist the ideology of Islam and warn people of it. What’s the real solution? A Holy Ghost revival in our country.

Gary Dull:                     Amen.

Tom Wallace:               I have been trying to tell Americans that God is raising up Islam as an instrument of judgment upon us because of our sin. We have sinned against God. He have angered God. We’re foolish to think that we can continue in our wicked living here and expect God to wink at it and look the other way, and continue to sing God Bless America in spite of our wicked sin.

Folks, God is angered and God is raising up our destruction if we do not repent. I believe that Islam is the very element that will bring us to our knees and destroy us, and bring us to humble ourselves and repent if we … But we can volunteer to do that. We can admit, “God we were wrong. We have foolishly thought that we could run our own ship without you. And we need to fall on our knees and repent.” And I believe God is bringing us and showing us destruction is coming our way if we continue, but we refuse to see it.

Dave Kistler:                 Gary, let me do this, because that is a take on this entire topic that you very seldom, in fact I don’t know if I’ve ever really heard it worded quite like Tom worded it, but with his statement, I completely concur, and I could tell you did as well because you uttered an Amen. The answer to this entire dilemma is nothing less than revival in the United States of America. And I believe Tom is 100% correct. I think Islam is part of God’s judgment on America, is God allowing us to have what we have desired to have independent of him. And that is we’ve tried to live our lives arrogantly, very superficially, to be sure, in violent disregard of him, and so this is the consequence.

So if revival, Gary, is the answer, and I’m firmly convinced it is, you are a pastor. What must take place inside the church? What must take place from the pulpits of America to facilitate, or if I could use this phrase, “fan the flame” of a revival in America? What must they place inside the church and especially from the pulpit?

Gary Dull:                     Dave, there’s no doubt that we need revival in America today, and I know that it disgusts you as well as it does me, and I’m sure Tom also when you hear some Evangelicals saying, “There will never be another revival in this nation.” I don’t like that. I think there could be another revival in America, and I think we need to pray for that.

But revival is simply defined as when God’s people get right with God. Think about that, ladies and gentlemen. It’s when God’s people get right with God. There are so many things going on in the lives of born-again believers that are godless, that are secular, that are worldly. We talk often on this program about the authority of the scripture.

So often the word of God is not the authority in the lives of individual Christians. We need to get back to the word of God. Now, what is that going to take? It’s going to take, #1, preachers making sure that their pulpits are on fire with the truth of the word of God. Secondly, it’s going to take making certain that every one of us allow the word of God to work effectively in our lives.

Thirdly, it’s going to mean we must be willing to repent of those things that have taken us away from biblical truth and get back to understanding who God is, what God expects, and how God operates. And I know that may seem like a simple formula, but that will be a formula that will bring us back to revival where God’s people get right with God.

It could very well be that God is judging America through Islam. We’ve often said too that he’s judging America through the rise of homosexuality. He could be judging America through abortion. Listen, it’s all around us. God’s judgment is there. It’s time for the Church of Jesus Christ to wake up.

Dave Kistler:                 Tom, before we exit the program, and we have just about a minute before we’re going to have to leave the air, but I want you to just give our listeners the information they need as to where they can go to find out more about Fortress of Faith as well as this new venture in which you are involved, and that’s called Missions to Muslims. Talk about that, if you would, very quickly.

Tom Wallace:               Our radio broadcast site is fortressoffaith.com. We just launched an app just for Android phones. Just right now we are trying to get into the iPhone market, and so people can listen to our daily 15-minute program. I cover the issues that’s going on. And basically what I’m trying to do alert people and show you why God is raising up Islam as an instrument of judgment and how we need to repent, and how we need to resist Islam. Yeah, there’s a political side. Don’t just stand there and weep over it. Do your bid to try to fight it. But the biggest thing we need to do is fall to our knees, folks. We need to repent. Then we need to rescue Muslims, and that’s missionstomuslims.com.

Sam Rohrer:                

Well have you ever been maligned or made fun of perhaps? Perhaps ridiculed by a classmate or a fellow worker or maybe embarrassed by a teacher because of something that you said or because of something that you believe? Well, if you have, and my guess is most of you listening to me right now have had one or more of those things happen to you in your lifetime. But, if I were to ask you, “Have you ever been beaten, thrown into jail, or publicly humiliated at the hands of government officials because of your faith in Jesus Christ,” likely very few listening to me right now have ever experienced that. If you have, then you may have in fact suffered biblical persecution. Today around the world there’s more persecution of people because of their faith in Jesus Christ than in the entire history of the world, or so that’s what the numbers are saying.

Yet, sadly, very few people know about it. So today on this program, we’re going to focus on Christian persecution. Our general theme is going to be this: slow motion holocaust, Christian persecution around the world. And we’re going to define what it is and what it’s not. We’re going to define and show where it’s happening, who’s primarily doing it, and why. And then we’re going to conclude at the end of the program with what we can do about it.

And with that I want to welcome you to Stand in the Gap Today, I’m Sam Rohrer, host of Stand in the Gap Today and I’m going to be joined today by my co-host, Dr. Gary Dull, Senior Pastor of Faith Baptist Church of Altoona, Pennsylvania, and Gary’s also the Executive Director of the Pennsylvania Pastor’s Network. Our special and first time guest to Stand in the Gap Today will be Dave Bailey, he’s an educational consultant, he’s an author of two books. One of them is Dare to Speak: Islam vs Free Democracy and Free Enterprise, which was published in 2006, and the most recent one, 2013 book entitled Shock and Alarm: What it was really like at the U.S. Embassy in Iraq.

So as we move now into this topic today, ladies and gentleman, I’d like to define persecution first of all, in a general sense, okay? Now here’s the definition, and I pulled this from Websters 1829 dictionary, frankly where I like to go for definitions of words. They seem to be more accurate to the original. But the definition here of persecution is this: it’s the infliction of pain, punishment or death upon others, and keyword, unjustly. Particularly for adhering to a religious creed or mode of worship, either by way of penalty or by compelling them to renounce their principles. All right? So infliction of pain, punishment, death, unjustly doing so, generally because of something that they believe.

Now, Gary, you heard the definition I just gave there, it’s in a general sense, but I want to zero in on Christian persecution as we go in the program today. And I’m gonna want you to define what biblical persecution, what it is. But, before you do that, let me just read down through a couple of things of what biblical persecution is not. So, ladies and gentleman, I’m going to give you just a few things here, but this is not Christian persecution.

For instance, a personal controversy with someone. Persecution, true, Christian persecution is not someone just making fun of you. It’s not an economic downturn or being caught out of work like the Great Depression. That was not persecution. Persecution is not necessarily war. The War for Independence, the Civil War, or World Wars I and II, were not primarily persecution even though all of them were marked with extensive death and suffering. Persecution is not something you get for doing wrong, such as being sent to jail for repeatedly refusing to pay your taxes. And persecution is not God’s corrective discipline for personal disobedience or the result of biblical principle of reaping and sowing. In other words, if you just do the wrong things, and make wrong choices all the time, bad things will happen to you, that’s not persecution either.

All right, now. Gary, let me go back to you, with those kind of things out of it, what it’s not, build out if you would just a little bit, what the Bible defines as true biblical, we say, Christian persecution, read it as defined by the Bible. Could you do that please?

Gary Dull:

Well Sam, I’m glad you went down through that list of what it is not because down through the years I’ve heard people say, “I’m being persecuted for Christ,” and they don’t really know what persecution for Christ is all about. That was very excellent that you elaborated upon that. You know the Bible tells us that persecution is something that we can expect in Second Timothy 3 in verse 12 it says, “Yea, and all that live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” And over in First Peter, chapter 2 in verse 21 it tells us that persecution is something that we are called unto. In fact, I would encourage every one of you who are listeners today to read through First Peter, because First Peter has a lot to say about persecution.

But biblical persecution, or persecution for Christ, is action that is designed to intimidate, physically harm, or kill people because of Christ. And the key component there is because of Jesus Christ. In other words, persecution is a result of doing what Christ commands us to do and living as Christ commands us to live. It’s the result of refusing to bow down to the God of government or culture and it’s the result of refusing to renounce the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, which is the name above all names. And I’ve often said to my congregation, Sam, if somebody would walk up to you with a 12-gauge shotgun and say, “Denounce Christ or die,” what would you do? And of course, you know, if you did not denounce Christ and get shot, obviously, that’s persecution.

But this is real. And there are many nations of the world where persecution is going on today. And I would encourage people, before I turn it back to you, if you get the opportunity ladies and gentleman, to get Richard Wurmbrand’s book entitled, Tortured for Christ, do so. It will be a great challenge to you and it will help you to understand what this concept of being persecuted for Jesus Christ is all about. Sam.

Sam Rohrer:

Gary, we have just about half a minute before we go to the break, let me just ask you, do you think that you have ever really experienced biblical Christian persecution?

Gary Dull:

Well, that’s a very good question, Sam. I mean, you know, maybe been mocked, been laughed at, our church has been picketed because there’s certain stands we’ve taken upon the Gospel that maybe in a little sense that’s persecution, but it’s nothing like many of our brothers and sisters in Christ are going through in the world around us today.

Sam Rohrer:  

And Gary, it’s not surprising me that you answered it that way because if you would have asked me the same question, I would have said exactly what you said. But ladies and gentleman, that probably is what, as I said at the start of the program, very few will have actually experienced in this country, true infliction of pain or punishment because of our faith in Jesus Christ. However, that’s not the case for much of the world.

Our general theme for today, is slow motion holocaust, Christian persecution around the world. We just dealt with the issue of what Christian persecution is not and what it is. But next question is, where is this happening? Well the very sad fact is that persecution, and specifically Christian persecution in particular, has risen its ugly head around the world in ways not seen before. Over the centuries since the days of Nero and the Christians in the Colosseum to the days of Stalin and Hitler and the current days of ISIS, Christians have been persecuted and martyred for their faith all around the world.

In this segment I want to identify where persecution is happening today. And to help us walk through this subject will be our special guest, Dave Bailey. He’s an educational consultant and he’s an author. His most recent book was entitled Shock and Alarm: What it was really like at the U.S. Embassy in Iraq. And with that today, Bailey, I’d like to welcome you to the program. Thank you for being with us today.

Dave Bailey:

Thank you.

Sam Rohrer:   

So let me go right off here to the first obvious question, Dave, and that is this, how bad is Christian persecution around the world today? And how does the frequency and the extent of Christian persecution today compare to what we know from years past? Can you walk into that with us please?

Dave Bailey:

It is remarkable today. According to Open Doors U.S.A., which is a tremendous resource, I recommend to anyone, they claim that 215,000,000 Christians are living under persecution today. And while the worst of the countries for Christians to live in is North Korea, North Korea is really sort of an isolated case. It’s not like North Korea is trying to spread its ideology around the world or anything like that. After that, the line goes down to Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan, Pakistan, Eritrea, Libya, Iraq, Yemen, let’s see what else we have here, we have Iran, India, Saudi Arabia, Rabia, Maldives, Nigeria, Syria, Uzbekistan, and the key point here is what you’ll see is Islam is the common theme to all of these. With the possible exception of Eritrea, which even though has a large Muslim population, is just in sort of dictatorial chaos. So it’s a little hard to pin it strictly on Islam. But the key point here is that there is a single ideology driving this persecution in every other one of these countries outside of North Korea.

Gary Dull:

You know it’s a delight to have you with us, Dave, and it’s amazing to see how this persecution is going on around the world and many people simply are not aware of it and I appreciate you mentioning some of these nations where persecution among Christians is the greatest but are you familiar with Voice of the Martyrs?

Dave Bailey:

Oh yes. Fantastic organization and it’s founder, Mr. Wurmbrand, tremendous man with a tremendous story and what he endured was just incredible.

Gary Dull:

Absolutely. And as I mentioned in the first segment, his book Tortured for Christ is a great book for people to read. But recently the Voice of the Martyrs put out a map, I don’t know if you’re familiar with it or not, but they highlighted some of the nations of the world that are hostile towards Christianity and other nations of the world where Christianity is restricted. And I am wondering if you would not mind from your understanding of those two terms as it relates to persecution, explain to our audience what it means in talking about persecution, what is a restricted nation and what is a nation where Christianity is hostile? There’s hostility towards it.

Dave Bailey:

Yeah, that’s a very important thing to understand. A hostile nation means that Christians are being persecuted more like on an individual basis, that is either through chaos or just a predominance of hostility towards Christians. Individuals feel like they can feel free to attack Christians with impunity. Whereas with restricted nations, it is policy of the government itself, that is the government itself is restricting Christianity from a legal perspective. Either making it illegal, making it illegal to build churches, having laws that do things like provide a death penalty imprisonment for conversion to Christianity from another religion. And that primarily happens with Islamic nations.

Sam Rohrer: 

Dave, let me pick up on that a little bit more. I’m looking at another map. Gary was talking about he was looking at one map there. I’m looking at another map, Open Doors, which you have already sited, opendoorsusa.org. Ladies and gentleman you can go to that site and you can see what we’re talking about. I encourage you to do that, but on the map I’m looking at there, they’ve actually taken the whole world and laid it out there on a flat map, and they’ve identified the countries of the world in three different colors. One of them in yellow, the way they have it, is it designates high persecution. Tan color is very high persecution and then orange is designating extreme persecution.

And if I count this right, there are ten on that list that they have that are designated as extreme. And I believe that you did identify those countries at least in the list that you just went over. But as I compare this extreme persecution here as they have laid it out, you and I, and we’ve made the theme this program, we used the word holocaust, slow motion holocaust. When you look at that combined with all the things that you know, and we’re talking about now, why do you believe that that designation, slow motion holocaust is an accurate designation? Is that really what we’re witnessing?

Dave Bailey: 

Yes, it is. And it operates in different phases depending on the conditions on the ground, okay? For example, Afghanistan’s listed by Open Doors as the number two worst place for Christian persecution and a few years ago I remember reading an article where Afghanistan was celebrating the demolition of it’s last church. Now, the point there is, that in Afghanistan the persecution has basically come to it’s full conclusion. All the churches have now been wiped out and the Muslims there are very happy about it. They celebrate, okay?

And back in 2006 time-frame I remember there was a story about a man who converted to Christianity and it was discovered by his wife because he was found to have a Bible next to his bed, and for that he was imprisoned and was facing the death penalty and fortunately, I believe Italy intervened and the government of Afghanistan very neatly declared him to be mentally insane and exiled him off to Italy and that’s how his life was preserved. But that’s how complete the persecution is there. And the key point here is it’s not like the Islamist seek dominance and once they have established dominance they’re gonna let people go, take it easy. They are not satisfied until all other religions are completely extinguished, and they see Christianity as actually their number one rival, okay?

So it operates in phases and it does not let up. It just gets worse, okay? And the key thing to understand with that, is there’s Sharia law and if you see these countries sort of operating in similar ways, it’s because they are all following variations of Sharia Law, which may differ from one place to another, but fundamentally with regard to people of other faith like Christians, the treatment is the same and it just tightens the noose as control increases.

Sam Rohrer: 

Okay. Now I’m gonna jump in here again, I got Gary, I know you got a question. Hold it, if you can, just a minute. The next segment we’re gonna go more into the who and the why of what you’re talking about there.

Dave Bailey:  

Right.

Sam Rohrer:

But on that map, it’s interesting. I do not see China, really listed on that map. Yet, at least it’s not one of the extreme ones but I’m also looking at an article here today that just came out today that was passed along to me. The title of it is 215,000,000 Christians persecuted, says mostly by Muslims, but it goes into and it talks about an example here in China, where China just very recently actually went in and burned a building, a church, where 50,000, it was a registered church but they burned it to the ground because it was getting too big.

And then this morning I heard on the news, a different news broadcast, saying that the Chinese government had moved into churches as they had them, known them, or as they were underground, that had identified them, and were ordering people to give back their ties, actually the church to give back the ties of the constituents because it was illegal. Now, China is neither Muslim nor is it North Korea. How do you classify China?

Dave Bailey:

China is moving kind of in the right direction. They at one time were, I would say, every bit as persecutorial towards Christianity as North Korea was. The key difference is they’ve slowly been convinced that maybe Christianity isn’t as much of a threat to their power as they once thought. But the key thing is they are always obsessed with their own power and anything that they see as a threat to their power they will seek to crush. And so this is largely a way of asserting their power over the church and that’s what they want to maintain.

Sam Rohrer: 

But in reality, Dave, and Gary, that is persecution to some extent but slightly different, but still the same. Ladies and gentleman, we’re talking about persecution today. Slow motion holocaust, Christian persecution around the world. It’s bigger than ever. It’s in countries all around the world as we move into this next segment, we’ve defined Christian persecution, what it is and what it’s not, important to start there with the definition. Secondly, we’ve identified in the last segment, where it is happening and it’s happening, really, across the world but if you take a look at a big map, laid out and stretched out where you have the entire world flat before you like you see in some of the maps, the heaviest concentration is in the Middle East and it runs all through the Middle East and over into Pakistan and then over China and North Korea. But the biggest bulk is in North Africa and the Middle East. If you could think about that, that’s where most is happening.

But in this segment we want to talk about who’s doing it? Who is inflicting persecution on Christians and why? Now we talked about it just a little bit in this last segment but we want to bear down with it a bit more here. In the study of Christian persecution there are certain drivers, put it in that perspective. Perhaps the very worst, in my opinion, is government. When government gets involved in working against its citizens, it becomes, in my opinion, and I think as most would analyze persecution, become pretty extreme because government has the power to imprison you, to kill you and to bring a lot of factors to bear that are perhaps worse than other drivers. But, in other cases and places like that, about the only thing that can stop a government, once it’s engaged in persecuting people, about the only thing that can stop that is some other government from the outside coming in and waging war against them to defeat them. Kind of like what happened with Hitler and Stalin in wars past.

But there are other drivers of persecution as well. These are societal factors. They’re religious and non-religious leaders, they can inflict persecution. Extended family, organized crime cartels and a host of others that we would put under the broader category of society. So you have government, then you have society. But, to me, Gary and Dave, as I am thinking about this, to me it seems like the worst all of persecutors are when you combine the sanction of religious authority with the power of government to actually bring all powers to bear and throw you in jail or to kill you. When these come together, it seems that that’s when, for now according to the map at Open Doors U.S.A., when things become extreme, extreme persecution, it seems like they’re committed or they’re combined.

So with that, I want to welcome back into the program Dave Bailey, Dave is an education consultant, author of Shock and Alarm: What it was really like at the U.S. Embassy, he’s a member of Gideons International as well. He does a lot of different things, a lot of writing and so forth, but Dave, I wanna bring you back in right now and just ask you, from your research who are the major drivers of persecution, Christian persecution today around the world. Governments, religious entities, perhaps syndicated crime entities, and you can give me your comment as well at what I just said about the combining of religious and civil authority is perhaps the worst driver, but give me thoughts on this as you analyze the whole world, basically, and what’s happening here in the area of Christian persecution.

Dave Bailey: 

Well thank you. In another era, I would have said communism, okay? Invariably it is a political ideology. It’s just communism has sort of lost its luster and people who hate Christianity or whatever, have kind of moved on to a large degree. The new political ideology that has risen up as the great persecutor of Christianity is Sharia Law, which is associated with Islam. And the reason why I say Sharia Law, is that is not necessarily governmental, it transcends government individual Islamist, okay? Now that isn’t necessarily any old Muslim, I mean what I’ve seen is there are two kinds of Muslims. There are devout Muslims, those are ones who really follow Sharia Law, take it very seriously. And then there’s the Muslims who don’t want to be killed by devout Muslims, so they’re just as much terrorized by the devout Muslims as anybody else is. So it’s an important distinction to keep in mind.

But the key thing is Islam empowers individual Muslims to enforce Sharia Law, personally, whether or not there is a government doing it. And that’s very important to understand. Because, just because you don’t have a government enforcing Sharia, doesn’t mean that you are not going to be affected by Sharia. And that is what I would call the greatest threat that we are facing today and to the extent that Sharia has power, the greater the power the more of the threat there is. If there’s any power at all, it is somewhat of a threat to you. That’s why here even in the United States, we are affected by terrorism.

We talked about, you know, are we being persecuted. Well, I don’t know about you, but our church has started a new policy where we’re locking the doors once the church service starts and we have somebody keeping an eye out for somebody deciding to come out and attack our church. Now we haven’t been affected directly ourselves, but because of terrorism elsewhere, this is what terrorism does. The whole point of terrorism is to make an example, essentially, of someone so everybody else has to watch out, has to tow the line, has to keep quiet and not do anything that will turn the sights onto them. So, we are affected by terrorism. If your church is now keeping guard, shutting the doors, locking the doors, changing their behaviors, you are affected by terrorism.

Gary Dull:  

You know, that’s very interesting, Dave, that you bring that out because I Pastor a church here in Altoona, Pennsylvania, and for several years we’ve had a security team but recently we have just hired a professional security force to guard us while we are in church for a long time we’ve locked our doors when people get in. And it’s unfortunate that you’ve got to do that, but you do have to do that today. But you know, just something that I want to make as an observation and then perhaps you can comment on it. I’m going to be going to India, I’ll be there three weeks from today as a matter of fact. And when I applied for my visa, they wanted me to sign a paper that said I would not preach or do anything religious in the country. Which means that the, you know, I couldn’t, if you want to push it, I couldn’t pray, I couldn’t sing, I couldn’t whatever in the name of the Lord.

And a Mission that I developed a number of years ago, well we have missionaries there in India, and one of the things that I have learned from our missionaries there is that even though Islam is recognized perhaps as the number one persecutors of Christians in many areas, in India, Dave, Hinduism is starting to persecute Christians. And what they are doing there is that they are attempting, that is the Hindu religion, is attempting to get the government to stand with them to persecute Christians so there again, you would see the coming together of a religious entity as well as a governmental entity. Most people don’t think that Hindus persecute. But in some portions of the world, they’re doing that from what I understand. Your thoughts?

Dave Bailey:    

Well, that’s an excellent point and I’m glad you brought it up. There’s a fundamental difference. Now what you’re saying is absolutely true. I’ve been reading about it myself, but there is a fundamental difference. And the fundamental difference is Hinduism is not a proselytizing faith in the way that either Christianity or Islam is. The reason you’re seeing that persecution is motivated by defensive thinking. That is, Hinduism in fact, is on a relative decline whereas other religions are increasing, Hinduism is kind of holding steady or declining, going down. And they’re feeling that. They feel threatened. So it’s a response to feeling threatened. When Christians are proselytizing in India, what that does is they’re actually proselytizing most of the people at the bottom of the caste system, because they have something to offer those people that the Hindu caste system does not offer. And that’s attracting them and that’s upsetting the whole social order over there and that’s what’s driving it, okay? And so it’s not like the persecution of Christians by Hindus is going to start happening here in the United States with Hindus who are coming over from India, it’s localized to that particular area where Hindus are feeling like they have to defend their faith from the infiltration.

Sam Rohrer:  

As we move now into our final segment here, we’ve tried to undertake, really ladies and gentleman, in a very surface way. Because we could spend hours and hours on this matter of Christian persecution. We tried to define what it is and what it’s not, where it’s taking place, and who primarily is the instigator. Now, we’ve mentioned that when it comes to the who, that the worst offender now, is the Islamic ideology and is what our guest Dave Bailey just said in the last segment, that what makes Islamic ideology so critical in this matter is that they as a religion, as the religion component political system, they are bent on dominating the world. So there is a great zealousness behind what they’re doing. And because of Sharia Law concept it empowers the individual to take power or action into their own hands.

Now there are some governments in the Middle East, some of the worst offenders are Pakistan and Somalia and Sudan, these are Muslim nations by and large, but it is the combining with the empowering of the individual, that’s an interesting point we want to bring out here. But the reality of it is that Christian persecution is undeniable. It is on the increase. There are more being persecuted now than, as far as we can let tell by looking back than has ever happened. The drivers of persecution though, regardless of the circumstance will always surface where the citizens or the nation’s leaders deny the God of the Bible. They deny the person of Jesus Christ and they embrace the lie that says that man can become God. At that point then things began to really unwind.

So whether the ideology is Emperor worship with Nero, communism with Stalin, or Nazism with Hitler, or Islam with Muhammad, or Hinduism we’re talking about, any of these, the question is, “What can we do about it as Christian persecution is increasing around the world?” And Gary, I want to go to you first, from your perspective here, you just said you’re going to be going to China, you’ve already suffered a little bit because they basically said, “We won’t let you into our country unless you promise not to speak about Christ,” that’s an amazing thing, Gary. So it’s happening in a lot of ways but persecution, you said earlier, shouldn’t come as a surprise for those who truly live Godly, but build that out just a little bit about the reality of persecution, just so we know, that regardless of where we are, what country we may find ourself in, that point that Christ made, is eternally true.

Gary Dull: 

Well, it is, and of course I’m actually going to India, not China this time.

Sam Rohrer:

Did I, I got that wrong, India, yes sir.

Gary Dull:

But it’s the same neck of the woods, I guess, but yeah, I am doing that. But you know, you talk about Second Timothy 3, in verse 12 that says, that we can expect persecution to a certain degree. But I also think of First Peter and I would encourage every one of you who are listening today to do some studying in First Peter, because it’s dedicated to preparing us, equipping us for suffering. And in First Peter chapter 4 in verse 12, it says, “Beloved think it not strange concerning the fiery trial, which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you, but rejoice in as much as you are partakers of Christ’s sufferings. That when his glory shall be revealed, yea may be glad also with exceeding joy.” Then he says, “If yea be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are yea.” And then of course it goes on so you see, that goes back to what our definition of persecution is.

Being persecuted for the cause of Christ. Not for something we might do, necessarily, that would be wrong, but being persecuted or reproached because the fact that we are standing for Jesus Christ. So in reality I think that throughout the pages of scripture, Sam, you can see that persecution should not come as a surprise even though it is true that we here in the United States of America, don’t face persecution to any degree compared to many other countries of the world do.

Sam Rohrer: 

And Gary, you did not say it, but I’m gonna just put in, ladies and gentleman, we should therefore pray for those. We may not be able to help directly, but we can pray for those. But we can also, there are entities, Open Doors U.S.A. and others are entities that help them. There are other groups and us bringing these things to attention are a part of what we can do. Dave, let me go to you right now because the fact that persecution clearly something that’s clear, we know that, but as I said earlier, when governments get involved in actually persecuting their people, about the only thing that can stop that are other governments and to a large extent, the U.S. government has probably had as much to do with stopping persecution in countries that have persecuted their people more than anybody perhaps in time.

And just two days ago, Sam Brownback, Governor Sam Brownback was approved, just narrowly, by the U.S. Senate to become the first Ambassador at large for religious liberty. I think this is one of his issues as well, but speak a little bit Dave, as to what governments can do, what our government through policy can do to help limit and stop the degree of Christian persecution we’re seeing around the world.

Dave Bailey: 

I thank you. The first thing I would say is remember we live in a democracy. And so if we expect our government to take the right actions, we ourselves have to be educated. So my recommendation to everyone is take the time to understand Islam. Even if it’s just a little bit, even if it’s in bits and chunks, don’t avoid the subject. I think one of our great problems in this country is people know it’s an unpleasant subject and they just avoid it like the plague. But that self-imposed ignorance basically makes it impossible for our leaders to make the right decisions because we’re either electing the wrong people to lead us or we’re not holding them to our principles. Because we’re not even aware that those principles are under threat.

With that in mind I have a newsletter called Islam Update, and if you contact this station say you’d like to subscribe to it, just do that and word will get back to me and I will provide that with you. And it’s simply current events throughout the world with regard to Islam and you can just see it in yourself from news reports. Not from me, from reports from the news and you can form your own conclusions. The other thing we can do as far as our leaders are concerned is beware of entanglements. We keep trying to turn Islam into something that it isn’t.

And that case that I brought up about Afghanistan in 2006, the most significant thing about that guy who was caught converting to Christianity and was put on trial for his life and was ready to be killed, but through last minute actions he was declared insane and sent off to Italy, the key thing to keep in mind is that all took place under a government that we helped establish. Now how the heck does that happen? The other part of it is the practical extermination of Christianity in the Middle East, largely in Iraq, that didn’t start with ISIS. That started when we came in and took over Iraq and the key point there is trying to set up democratic institutions doesn’t solve the problem if fundamentally you have a people that want to be governed by Sharia Law. You just get a democratic version of Sharia Law, which essentially is what we have in Iran, okay? And so that is so important.

Sam Rohrer:

Well, today marks the 45th anniversary of perhaps the most dreadful United
States Supreme Court decision in the history of our nation. That decision turned
this nation from a nation of life to a nation of death, and that decision
guaranteed God’s judgment on a nation that was once birthed by God’s divine
providence. It's resulted in 90 times more deaths than all of the soldiers killed in
the battlefield in all of the US wars since 1775. That's right. Let me repeat that,
at over 60 million deaths this court case has sentenced to death 90 times more
people to death than all of the soldiers killed in all US battles since 1775. That
infamous court decision was none other than Roe v Wade which passed January
22nd, 1973, 45 years ago by a vote of seven to two.

Well, this week has also been declared by President Donald Trump to be the
annual sanctity of life week, appropriately so. We're going to focus today's
program on life. Our general theme for today is celebrate life. God does. We're
going to look at why life is sacred from God's perspective, here right off.
Segment two and three we're going to get a personal testimony from a woman
who yielded to the temptation to have an abortion, but then found redemption
and forgiveness through Jesus Christ, as we discuss a few of the personal costs
as well as the cultural costs of rejecting life. Then in the last segment we're
going to look at how we can restore a culture of life in our nation once again.

With that as a roadmap for today's program I want to welcome you to Stand In
The Gap Today, I'm Sam Rohrer host of the program here, and I'm going to be
joined by Pastor Gary Dull, senior pastor of Faith Baptist Church, Altoona,
Pennsylvania, and also executive director of the Pennsylvania Pastors Network,
as well as evangelist Dave Kistler, president of our North Carolina Pastors
Network, and president of Hope to the Hill in Washington, DC, and then our
very special guest Kim Ketola host of Cradle My Heart Today, that radio program
that she hosts. She's also the author of Amazon's number one bestseller Cradle
My Heart: Finding God's Love After Abortion.

Well, Dave and Gary, it's great to be back together with you two guys after this
weekend here on this national program that God's given us the privilege of
communicating all over America on nearly 450 radio stations on this program
alone, including now in the City of Washington, DC that covers Virginia,
Maryland, Delaware, Southern Pennsylvania. I think because of this topic today
talking about a Supreme Court case, really appropriate that we're there in that
market. Dave, I'd like to get some comment from you here. I think you listened
to some of the comments made at the rally, March for Life rally on Friday of last
week, but just before I ask you for your comments I'd like to play just a very
short clip, an introductory statement actually by Vice President Pence as he
welcomed that large gathering there to Washington, DC. If you could play that,
Russ.

Mike Pence:

More than 240 years ago our founders wrote words that have echoed through
the ages. They declared these truths to be self-evident that we are each of us
endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights and that among these

are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. 45 years ago the Supreme Court of
the United States turned its back on the inalienable right to life, but in that
moment our movement began, a movement that continues to win hearts and
minds, a movement defined by generosity, compassion and love, and a
movement that one year ago tomorrow inaugurated the most pro life President
in American history, President Donald Trump.

Sam Rohrer:

Well, Dave, those were just a few of the comments from Vice President Pence.
First of all I'd just like to ask you just a general brief comment of what you
thought the Vice President said and then build out at least one element of why
the foundation of our constitutionally protected freedoms and rights here are
so intricately linked to life.

Dave Kistler:

Sam, let me say this, I think it's ironic almost but more than fitting that as Vice
President was speaking you heard a little baby's cry in the background, and that
is an amazing, amazing thing. He is 100% correct. These are the foundational
principles upon which our country was established, the first one being an
inalienable right given to us by almighty God, and that is life. His comments
were incredible, but then the President following up on what the Vice President
had to say, coming out as the first President in the history of the country to ever
as a sitting President to address that group was stellar. Sam, I think what it
signaled was a cataclysmic moral paradigm shift in the United States of America.
It is beyond encouraging.

Sam Rohrer:

Gary, let me go to you because I agree with what Dave just said, and I'm going
to play a clip in the next segment, a short portion of what the President said. I'd
like to take you, have Gary, from God's perspective give us a very short treatise
on why life being so sacred to God, why is that? Why because of that we should
view all life to be so sacred?

Gary Dull:

Well, I would draw your attention Sam to two verses of scripture, one back in
Genesis 2:7 where it says and the Lord God formed man of the dust of the
ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living
soul. Then over in the Book of Acts 17:28 the word of God says: "For in him that
is in God we live and move and have our being, as certain also of your poets
have said, for we are also his offspring." I could comment greatly on both of
those passages of scripture, but the reason why God values life is because he is
the creator of life. He has breathed into the nostrils of Adam life and, of course,
that's been passed down to us. Then as is brought out there in Acts chapter 17,
we are his offspring and so we are made in God's image, therefore we should
respect life as we respect God and what he did in the creating of mankind.

Sam Rohrer:

Gary, you are correct. All of us could spend a long time here, but ladies and
gentlemen what Gary just said, what Dave just said, God is the source of all life.
He created it. He breathed into that first body that he made. He breathed in life.
We're made in God's image. We are therefore special. We are therefore sacred.
When we cast off God in our minds and we cast off his commands, we cast off the sacredness of life. That's what our country has done and much of the world
has done for a long time, but never with good results.

Recognizing the sacredness of life as a gift from God and finding its sole source
in a loving creator God is one of the most profound decisions an individual, a
family, or a nation must take. To choose life results in blessings untold for the
individual and the individual as well. To choose death is a choice that results in
sorrow individually and for a nation God's judgment. Perhaps the most
applicable verse in all of scripture is found in the Book of Deuteronomy in a
section of verses of there, and it's these. I want to put down and list out for you
right now God's warning. This was a warning to the Nation of Israel who God
wanted to bless.

He said in chapter 30, verses 15 and 16 and following, it says this, God says:
"See, I have set before you this day life and good, death and evil. If you obey the
commandments of the Lord your God that I command you today by loving the
Lord your God, by walking in his ways and by keeping his commandments and
his statutes and his rules then you shall live and multiply and the Lord your God
will bless you and the land that you're entering to take possession of it. If your
heart turns away and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other
Gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you will surely perish." Then in
verse 19 it says: "I call heaven and Earth to witness against you today that I have
set before you life and death, blessing and curse, therefore choose life that you
and your offspring may live."

Now, while this is often applied to the modern pro life movement and it's right
to do so in principle, this promise is a national promise, and so its implications
are enormous when it comes to national blessing or national judgment. It starts
with individuals like you and me here today. It's my honor to welcome now to
Stand In The Gap Today a woman who was all too familiar with the personal
side of this decision to choose. Her name is Kim Ketola. She's the host and
executive producer of her own radio program, Cradle My Heart Today, and
author of a bestselling book about her life on this very subject entitled Cradle
My Heart: Finding God's Love After Abortion. With that I want to welcome to
Stand In The Gap Today Kim Ketola. Kim, thank you for being with us today.

Kim Ketola:

I appreciate it. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Sam Rohrer:

Well, Kim, it's really wonderful and it's an honor for us to have you on the
program today. You've been a real blessing to many, many women and men
across this nation as well. I'm glad that you've really taken the time to share just
a bit of your story with our listeners across the country today. Before I ask you
to share your story, I'd like to play a less than one minute clip, Kim, of President
Trump's address to the March for Life rally in DC on Friday. Just a short clip.
Russ, if you'd play that please.

Donald Trump:

Thousands of families, students and patriots and really just great citizens gather
here in our nation's capital. You come from many backgrounds, many places,

but you all come for one beautiful cause to build a society where life is
celebrated, protected and cherished. The March for Life is a movement born out
of love. You love your families. You love your neighbors. You love our nation and
you love every child born and unborn because you believe that every life is
sacred, that every child is a precious gift from God.

Sam Rohrer:

Well, we've been talking about that. Life, a gift from God. Kim, on this infamous
45th anniversary day of the Supreme Court Roe v Wade declaring that the
taking of life of the unborn was legal and effectively put their fist in the face of
God, our creator. How significant is, first of all, that our President Donald Trump
spoke to the March for Life from your perspective and made those comments
that I just played? Just your comments please before we get into your
testimony.

Kim Ketola:

It's amazing to me that he's the first President to do so. I think other Presidents,
maybe it's a technology thing because they could do it via satellite from the
Rose Garden, but other Presidents have phoned in remarks. This is an event that
for over 45 years has been drawing hundreds of thousands of people to our
nation's capital to make their voices heard on behalf of the youngest members
of the human family here in our nation. I applaud President Trump. I don't think
we have to agree with him about everything to see that this is a very good thing
that he did in aligning himself with the cause of life this month.

Sam Rohrer:

Kim, certainly it is a delight to have you with us, and you've got quite a
testimony and you've written a book on a very important topic that has helped
many women, mothers and fathers and families together no doubt, because it
relates to this terrible crime of abortion. You've entitled your book Cradle My
Heart: Finding God's Love After Abortion, and I think that's very significant,
because there are a lot of people, a lot of ladies who've had abortion and after
those abortions they've just felt terrible. They need to know about the love of
God. Now, I know you've shared your story many, many times and it's difficult
every time you share it, but if you would please I'd like to ask you to share with
us a bit now of your story of your testimony. You evidently found yourself
pregnant and very fearful. Share just a little bit with our audience today what
this was like for you and how you went through it please.

Kim Ketola:

Sure. Well, I was in a relationship and it was a committed relationship, and so
we were sexual active before marriage, which I knew to be wrong but I wasn't
thinking about whether it was right or wrong. Moral considerations were not at
the top of my mind. I guess I considered myself a good enough person, and I
certainly had never heard any teaching about the sanctity of human life when I
found myself pregnant. I thought, "Oh, well we'll get married. I'll tell him and we'll just quietly get married and save our reputations." Instead, he wanted to
save his future by eliminating the child. This was a shock to me and I was
mortified that he would treat me that way. I didn't have any resources to stand
up for myself. I didn't have any principles on which to stand, which I think is the
most important thing for us to really realize when we think about how can
women do this.

We have some sort of an innate sense in our conscience that there's another life
involved, but of course as is still happening the abortion industry sold me the
deception that an early pregnancy does not equal a child. It's just tissue. We
picture that and they're still telling women that. I wasn't ignorant. I was an
educated person. I knew about the birds and the bees, but I somehow believed
that this was not going to be taking a life. God intervened that day at the very
last minute to wake me up to what was happening and to let me know that it
was wrong. Now, I was not a follower of Jesus Christ. I had the remnant of some
childhood teaching, but I believe the Holy Spirit has given a moment of grace
like that, a moment of truth like that to countless others because I've heard
their stories. Many brave women at that point get up. Many women at that
point are held in place by workers in the abortion industry, and I've heard many
of those stories as well.

As for me, I didn't know what to do with that information, and they say it's fight
or flight, but the third option we have when we're panicked is to freeze, and
that's what I did. Although I knew it was wrong, and although it really was not
my choice, it was something others had chosen for me I passively allowed it to
happen. That engendered in me a knowledge that in my heart I had behaved as
a coward. I knew that I was then the last line of defense against the death of an
innocent child, and yet I protected myself instead. It's coming to grips with that
knowledge of your character, coming to grips with God's judgment, as he must
judge that justly, that drove me to finally seek my healing and write about what
that journey was like when I wrote Cradle My Heart.

Dave Kistler:

Kim, let me ask you this, and it is a delight to have you aboard. How quickly after
you succumbed to this abortion did you come to a personal relationship with
Jesus Christ?

Kim Ketola:

It took many, many long years and the abortion absolutely impeded it. My first
question was does God hate me. My next question was am I going to hell. My
next question was what about the baby, have I doomed a baby to hell? I had a
lot of ignorance. I had a lot of misconceptions about God, but the fear drove my
lack of a relationship with God and when that would become intolerable I would
just deny that it was ever a problem at all. I would sink into the cultural
rationalizations: "Well, it was the best that I could do. It's legal. He wasn't there for me." Whatever it is that we tell ourselves. Then when the truth would dawn
once again, there was just an endless cycle of despair and denial, and despair
and denial. That lasted for over 20 years until a woman spoke the truth of God's
word to me from 1 John 1:8-9 and told me that that forgiveness and cleansing
was for me personally.

Praise God, the Holy Spirit opened my eyes and I was given the gift of faith and I
believed. It was probably a period of maybe 10 years of attrition feeling worse
because now I knew that Christ had died for my sins, but I had no idea how to
reconcile this particular action. Yes, I think abortion destroys the spiritual lives
of women, I know that firsthand, and I know it from the many stories that I've
heard and told as well.

Sam Rohrer:

Let me go back now into our discussion with Kim. We're looking right now at the
ugly impact side of the equation, that decision made years ago. As God told
Israel in that Deuteronomy passage, blessings both national and personal would
result from choosing to obey God and follow his commands. He said that by so
doing that would result in choosing life, but choosing death and hardship and
judgment both nationally and personally would result also from rejecting God
and his commands which are all about preserving and working with the
sacredness of human life created in his image, and it's the same as choosing
death. The cost is always high of choosing death personally, culturally,
economically.

Now to talk about this further I want to go back to our discussion with Kim Ketola. Kim, I'd like you to pick up just a little bit before we get into looking at
some cultural impacts of abortion on this nation, or frankly any nation. You
were talking about it was 20 years that you dealt with some guilt and all of that
associated with it. Talk to us a little bit about the downside of not choosing life.
What kind of scars, what kind of difficulty are we bearing as individuals involved
or families involved in this type of thing? Just give us some insight if you could
please.

Kim Ketola:

Well, I was extremely angry with the people who failed to support me. I was not
able to forgive when it would have been appropriate to forgive and would have
freed me from that experience. I poured myself into my career with a
vengeance, because after all what had it cost me? Then because I had that
abortion three months in to meeting my goal of starting a radio career in
Minneapolis and Saint Paul. I was on the air continuously there for over 30
years. I was part of the cultural landscape. You just couldn't escape me. I was 23
years old and just starting out in that launch phase. That's when most women
choose abortion, by the way, it's not primarily a poor women's problem. It's not primarily women of color. It's primarily middle class white women in the launch
phase who are choosing abortions to protect their income and to protect their
future, and that's what I was doing. I was a poster child for that.

As I advanced in that career I had no peace, you know unless the Lord builds the
house, those who build it labor in vain. With every bit of success, with every bit
of advancement a guilty conscience would tell me that I didn't deserve it and I
shouldn't enjoy it. I was terrified that people would find out what I had done,
once I did become a Christian in my late 30s. I had children. I married and had
children. That marriage had no chance. Christ was not at the center of it, but I
was not healed. I was working out all my issues, trying to, within this marriage
that was crippled by a lack of faith. Abortion, it definitely impacted my
parenting. I became very overprotective of my firstborn, and it was very difficult
for me to bond with my children when they were young. I didn't trust myself. I
knew I had harmed my first child, my child that's in heaven now, and so all of
these ways are … There are many others.

We have in the research a sixfold increase in suicide and suicidal gestures in
Finland, and that research is pure because they have national health care and because the women there, there's no stigma, and there's no disincentive to
report as we have here in America. Finland has had to address it as a public
health crisis. They haven't been all that successful. There's still, I think, a twofold
increase now after all their interventions. I thank God I didn't go to that level of
despair, but it's absolutely a potential for those who have an abortion
experience, one or more.

Dave Kistler:

Kim, let me ask you this question. I am the son of a father who came out of a
very dysfunctional and broken home. I've heard him describe many, many times
before he went home to be with the Lord about how difficult it was in that
broken home, ordered out of the home when he was a 14 year old, lived with
seven different families from the time he was a teenager until he graduated
from college, and he struggled with a lot of issues as a result of that. He made
this statement that I've never forgotten, he said, "The moment God gave me
victory was when I realized that God loved me as much as he loved anyone else,
and that verse of scripture in the Bible that says when my father and mother
forsake me then the Lord will take me up."

I would love for you to describe if you could the moment you realized there is
forgiveness available in the person of Jesus Christ for this act of abortion I
committed and there is a bright future ahead for me. I'd love for you to describe
a little of that if you could.

Kim Ketola: That's a pleasure and that's a joy. I think what it drives toward is for everybody listening to this to understand that one of our primary purposes here is to be
Christ's dwelling place among men, that the Holy Spirit, our bodies are meant
for that. Women can understand that as vessels of new life, but until we are
indwelled by the Holy Spirit we're likely to do just about anything with our
bodies and with our lives. Yes, grasping God's love was the game changer for
me, and it happened at a retreat. I was watching the passion being played out,
and Christ was being crucified, and they asked us to put ourselves in the drama
and to determine who we were, who best reflected the state of our heart at
that moment.

I saw Pilate who was just being political and trying to extract what he could out
of it for himself and I saw his wife who somehow supernaturally knew the truth
but had nothing to stand on to influence anybody with that truth, and I saw the
weeping women who were with him, suffering with him. I saw those guards
who gambled for his cloak, and I had to admit that, as I've told you, I had been
saved. I had accepted Christ as my savior 10 years earlier, but I had not made
him the goal of my faith. I had not called him Lord. I had not submitted to his
lordship in my life. As I watched him being crucified for me and saw them and
their callousness gambling for his cloak, I saw how I was trying to cloak myself
with salvation at his expense when he had already paid it all for me.

I don't know, somehow his bravery allowed me to step over the line and say, "I
have no excuse. I am guilty of everything including that abortion, and I will take
whatever sentence you deem fit for me. I don't want you to suffer for me in this way anymore." I still can be moved to think about the beauty of his bravery on
our behalf. Praise God, I did, I expected to be condemned, vaporized, I don't
know exactly what. It was just like whatever happens I have to repent. Praise
God, instead of smiting me, he spoke into my spirit and said tell them I love
them. Tell them I love them, that that's what this cross is about. That's why it's my joy to bring up that difficult day and everything that went with it to warn
others but also to shine a light on the goodness of Christ and just how far he
went to bring me back to himself.

Sam Rohrer:

Amen.

Gary Dull:

Kim, in your speaking there I'm reminded of the Book of Lamentations 3 that
tells us that if it would not be for the mercy of the Lord we would be consumed,
and how we can thank God for his mercy. I can imagine there's some lady
listening to us right at this very moment who is feeling very, very lost and lonely
because of an abortion that she has had. Could you just take a few minutes and
share with her what the mercy of God really is like and how it can affect her
right now?

Kim Ketola:

Well, I know that the following day God provided someone who said I had an
abortion and allowed me to confess it out loud to another person. I said, "I did
too." She held me and we wept, and in that moment I felt a supernatural
knowledge that my child was safe in the arms of our savior. This is what really
released me, that I no longer needed to protect and guard that awful day. I no
longer needed to stay attached to the grief over the loss of my child. I want you
to know that as a woman who's had an abortion we can so easily get our
emotional wires crossed. We read that grief as guilt. Sometimes, we're
Christian, we know we're forgiven but we can't let it go. I want to tell you that's probably grief, and it's not God's plan for you to languish in it even one more day.

There are abortion recovery ministries in the pregnancy health community
everywhere that can help you and get you started on a pathway to peace,
pathway to joy and a pathway to freedom to be able to share your experience,
when it's appropriate, with others.

Sam Rohrer:

On this 45th anniversary of Roe v Wade and all that has happened after that our
focus has been on life. Celebrating life, because God did at creation and he does
still to this very day. Our last segment, we want to continue as we complete the
solution segment here the theme restoring a culture of life, God's remedy. Now,
in John 3:16 the verse in the Book of John starts with the words, "Because God
so loved the world that he gave his only son." That was Jesus Christ, who came
and furthered the plan of redemption started at creation by God the father. He,
Jesus Christ, provided the only way to heal the deepest pains, the ugliest scars,
and to reclaim so much of what has been lost.

Now, in this solution segment we want to continue with Kim Ketola about how
she found healing and comfort after submitting to an abortion many, many

years ago. Kim, your book that you wrote it's about your life journey, some of
what you just shared in the last segment. As a mother you were confronted with
a pregnancy that was overwhelming. You opted for an abortion. Yet, in your
grief some time years later you said you found redemption and hope and all
that God gives in response from doing things his way when you trusted Christ as
your savior. Now, I want you to go just a little bit further into this, because you
are speaking for hundreds of thousands of women, and you've shared some
insights into what you went through in your heart and your mind.

Go through just a little bit of that again as we look at God's remedy for healing.
Now, you are looking back and you've been healed. You've given testimony of
that, but there are a lot of women, fathers perhaps, husbands who maybe have
been involved in the whole of this thing as well and they have not yet found that
healing. Go into that just a little bit more if you can in this solution segment.

Kim Ketola:

Sure. Our solution, you know I worked up my material for the book, for Cradle
My Heart, while giving conference workshops while I was traveling with Ruth
Graham. We had about an hour and a half to deal with this topic, if you can
imagine. What can you possibly give someone about something so complex?
The answer is the gospel, and the answer is these healing encounters that Jesus
had with individuals, not parables. No. I'm talking about the portraits in our
family album of the Bible. We started with the lame man at the pool in John's
Gospel when Jesus asked him do you want to get well. The first time you read
that you're like, "What in the world? The guy's been lame on the sidewalk for 38 years. What kind of a question is that?"

I have found after abortion many of us don't want to get well. We cling to it. It
becomes part of our identity. "I will never forgive that. I can never be forgiven."
No, that is not Jesus' purpose and he zeroed in on blame, and he's talking about
how to motivate ourselves to move on from blame. As it says in Philippians,
forgetting the past, press on. Jesus said, "Do you want to get well? Get up. Pick
up your mat and walk. Pick up your baggage and let's get out of here." Then we
have the encounter of, of course, the woman at the well where Jesus said, "I
know every …" Her testimony was he told me everything I ever did, and yet he
came to talk to her and not about her sin but about her thirst and about true
worship. There's a key for you. Get in church and find a way to worship in truth
and be in community and in fellowship with other believers who can lift you up,
and you can confess and be healed as it says in James.

Oh my goodness, the story of the bleeding woman at the hem of his robe, and
again, this stunning question: "Who touched me?" You're Jesus. You know
everything. Why would he ask that? Because he wanted her to be able to stand
up and say, "What I could not do for myself to make myself pure in my impurity,
Jesus has just done for me. He has imputed righteousness to me miraculously."
What I love about her story is she's the only one that Jesus calls his daughter.
After abortion, we have this bodily shame that we know we've been defiled. We
know that our bodies have been misused. The very purpose of our female
anatomy has been disrupted and destroyed, and in many cases we've been maimed. Our fertility has been forever impacted. We can't fix that, but Jesus
comes and makes us clean, and then he calls us his daughters.

Oh my goodness, the things that Jesus did for the individuals who met him and
walked away healed I think are so, so powerful. I wrote this book for those who
can't go to an abortion recovery ministry immediately, or maybe they just don't
want to. It's not meant to be a complete resource, so you've got to be in
fellowship with other people and you've got to feel their arms around you.
You've got to allow them to receive your tears and assure you in person of God's
love for you.

Sam Rohrer:

Well, Kim, I wrote down a couple of things that you were saying there. You said
and identified these points of decision. One, you need to want to be healed. You
need to want healing. You said must be the desire to worship, which means
there's got to be a God focus. There will never be any healing without looking
towards the healer, that's God. Come to Christ, that's what redemption is all
about, and then when we put our faith and trust in him, he cleans all of those
things that have happened in the past, and then you stated finally must stay in
fellowship, because we need each other. I think those are great, great points.
Kim, have you found anyone, have you run into any woman or anyone your
point in life where this simple approach to healing has not yet worked? Will it
work for anyone?

Kim Ketola:

What is the GK Chesterton quote? It's not that people have tried the gospel and
found it wanting, it's that they've never tried it at all. No. I haven't, and in fact I've heard from many, many women that the material that we assembled in this
book has been so helpful, because again, it's the personality, it's the ministry
personality of Jesus Christ brought to life and applied to this issue, to our issue. I
think that's the help that people need. It's not that they don't really want to
believe. It's that they don't understand what it means for me. They don't know how to place themselves in a bigger story. Instead what happens when we don't
know how to do that we become sitting ducks and we become extras in Satan's
evil drama. We don't even know he's directing the action. We don't even know where all of the condemnation and all of the lack of peace and problems are
coming from. This is the beauty of life in Christ.

Sam Rohrer:

Well, Kim, we are just about done. Ladies and gentlemen, you're hearing something
that probably pertains to a lot of you. First of all, I recommend go to Jesus
Christ, clearly, obviously. Go to the word of God. It's the book that tells us all
about it. Kim, you share a personal testimony in your book. Where can people
go perhaps to get a copy of your book? Restate the title of it again and where
they can go to pick up your personal history.

Kim Ketola:

Thank you. I appreciate that. It's Cradle My Heart: Finding God's Love After
Abortion, and it's available wherever you can find books. Our website is
cradlemyheart.org. It's a love offering. All of our net proceeds go to the
pregnancy health community, so we don't have any profit motive in this
whatsoever. We're blessed to be able to do that, and we also are blessed to have some donors. If you can't afford it, we can make books available to you
without expense as well.

Sam Rohrer:

Well, Kim Ketola, thank you so much for being with us today on Stand In The

Gap Today,